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Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:38 pm
by KCPowercat
I have no idea.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:24 pm
by missingkc
Interesting stuff from Wikipedia on TWA's insistence on the unusual terminal design then rapid abandonment of MCI as its primary hub due to the problems caused by the design it had insisted on:
Many design decisions were driven by TWA, which envisioned the facility as its hub, with 747s and Supersonic Transports whisking people from America's heartland to all points on the globe. Streets around the airport included Mexico City Avenue, Brasília Avenue, Paris Street, London Avenue, and Tel Aviv Avenue.

TWA vetoed concepts to model the airport on Washington Dulles International Airport and Tampa International Airport, because those two airports had people movers, which it deemed too expensive. TWA insisted on "Drive to Your Gate" with flight gates 75 feet (23 m) from the roadway (signs along the roadway showed the flights leaving each gate). The single-level terminals had no stairs, similar to a plan that would be built at Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport.
TWA's vision

TWA's vision for the future of flight that had been pioneered by the TWA Flight Center at JFK Airport in New York City (which also featured cars close to the gates design) proved troublesome almost from the start.

The terminals turned out to be unfriendly to the 747 since passengers spilled out of the gate area into the halls. When security checkpoints were added in the 1970s to stem hijackings, they were difficult and expensive to implement since security checkpoints had to be installed at each gate area rather than at a centralized area.

As a result, passenger services were nonexistent downstream of the security checkpoint in the gate area. No restrooms were available, and shops, restaurants, newsstands, ATMs or any other passenger services were not available without exiting the secure area and being re-screened upon re-entry.

Shortly after the airport opened, TWA asked that the terminals be rebuilt to address these issues. Kansas City, citing the massive cost overruns on a newly built airport to TWA specification, refused, prompting TWA to move its hub to Lambert-Saint Louis International Airport in St. Louis, Missouri.[12]

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:39 pm
by FangKC
It sounds to me like TWA management at the time simply didn't know what they were doing. The part about the 747 passengers not having enough room in the terminal indicates that.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:40 pm
by FangKC
Recycling the rubble.

Airport officials help manage Terminal A construction waste during demolition

https://www.kctv5.com/news/kctv5_news_t ... 5270b.html

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:53 am
by normalthings
Just a thought but: What if we sold our airport and used the funds to pay down our debt or build out transit? Most western airports are privatized anyways and the FAA has a program set up for us to do so.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 am
by KCPowercat
What are the common arguments against a private airport? I'm up for exploring it.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:38 pm
by smh
KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 am
What are the common arguments against a private airport? I'm up for exploring it.
That it is a public good. But that's about the extent of my understanding.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:51 pm
by flyingember
KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 am
What are the common arguments against a private airport? I'm up for exploring it.
100% private?

No public meetings
No public finances, investors will demand profits from the airport. No public votes on items that would raise prices
Their choice on what amenities are inside the terminal and where
They own the land, they make deals with airlines to land there
Public services have to be contracted/purchased from the city
Will be more regional. Imagine seeing ads to fly from KC as if it was Fantastic Caverns

For the new terminal
The city would need to approve building a new terminal in terms of the permit approval process. No public selection of the builder. No selection of the time frame. No minority or women owned requirements.

More demands for public incentives to keep service levels up.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:17 pm
by normalthings
flyingember wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:51 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 am
What are the common arguments against a private airport? I'm up for exploring it.
100% private?

No public meetings
No public finances, investors will demand profits from the airport. No public votes on items that would raise prices
Their choice on what amenities are inside the terminal and where
They own the land, they make deals with airlines to land there
Public services have to be contracted/purchased from the city
Will be more regional. Imagine seeing ads to fly from KC as if it was Fantastic Caverns

For the new terminal
The city would need to approve building a new terminal in terms of the permit approval process. No public selection of the builder. No selection of the time frame. No minority or women owned requirements.

More demands for public incentives to keep service levels up.
Many(almost all) of the “cons” above already occur in the current management structure.

Private airports make their money on F&B, Services, and Amenities. That’s why you see soo many restaurants and shops when traveling Europe.

In regards to the new terminal, the city permitting department goes through the permit process with any project including the New Terminal. Let’s not forget that without the city referendum process, CFRG, and general slow gov. action, we would about to be opening the new terminal.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:20 pm
by KCPowercat
smh wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:38 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 am
What are the common arguments against a private airport? I'm up for exploring it.
That it is a public good. But that's about the extent of my understanding.
An airport seems lesser extent than other infrastructure. Seems to be operated almost privately now.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:28 pm
by normalthings
KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:20 pm
smh wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:38 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 am
What are the common arguments against a private airport? I'm up for exploring it.
That it is a public good. But that's about the extent of my understanding.
An airport seems lesser extent than other infrastructure. Seems to be operated almost privately now.
A pivate company manages all parking, another manages all of the F&B. Airlines hold the Aviation Department’s purse strings. The rest of the aviation department is run like a business but with the requirements of a city department.

My greatest fear would be preferential treatment given to 1 big carrier. However, that’s pretty much how it works now with Southwest. Other western private airports generally manage to a-lot gates in a fair manner.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:31 pm
by WoodDraw
normalthings wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:28 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:20 pm
smh wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:38 pm


That it is a public good. But that's about the extent of my understanding.
An airport seems lesser extent than other infrastructure. Seems to be operated almost privately now.
My greatest fear would be preferential treatment given to 1 big carrier. However, that’s pretty much how it works now. Other western private airports generally manager to a lot Gates in a fair manner.
Dumb question, but when you say western are you referring to the western us or the western world?

I know nothing about this and have to figure out what dumb question to ask next to understand this.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:35 pm
by normalthings
WoodDraw wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:31 pm
normalthings wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:28 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:20 pm


An airport seems lesser extent than other infrastructure. Seems to be operated almost privately now.
My greatest fear would be preferential treatment given to 1 big carrier. However, that’s pretty much how it works now. Other western private airports generally manager to a lot Gates in a fair manner.
Dumb question, but when you say western are you referring to the western us or the western world?

I know nothing about this and have to figure out what dumb question to ask next to understand this.
Western World: In Europe, 40% of Commercial Airports or 80% of passengers , Australia(Oceania), some Asia (iirc) etc.

Private Commercial Airports in the US is a “very Missouri” thing. The only private commercial airport in the US is Branson. STL is moving in that direction as well. STL’s wanting to sell theirs to help cover their liabilities.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:02 pm
by flyingember
normalthings wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:17 pm
flyingember wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:51 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 am
What are the common arguments against a private airport? I'm up for exploring it.
100% private?

No public meetings
No public finances, investors will demand profits from the airport. No public votes on items that would raise prices
Their choice on what amenities are inside the terminal and where
They own the land, they make deals with airlines to land there
Public services have to be contracted/purchased from the city
Will be more regional. Imagine seeing ads to fly from KC as if it was Fantastic Caverns

For the new terminal
The city would need to approve building a new terminal in terms of the permit approval process. No public selection of the builder. No selection of the time frame. No minority or women owned requirements.

More demands for public incentives to keep service levels up.
Many(almost all) of the “cons” above already occur in the current management structure.

Private airports make their money on F&B, Services, and Amenities. That’s why you see soo many restaurants and shops when traveling Europe.

In regards to the new terminal, the city permitting department goes through the permit process with any project including the New Terminal. Let’s not forget that without the city referendum process, CFRG, and general slow gov. action, we would about to be opening the new terminal.
And the fact that you know about the negatives is because it's not private.

You can't say that the process being visible was the cause of the delay. Look at how long the totally secret convention hotel process took.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:12 pm
by Eon Blue
Isn’t St. Louis pursuing airport privatization?

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:03 pm
by beautyfromashes
What is the average costs of our city debt? If it’s cheap money, why pay it off?

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:58 pm
by FangKC
Eon Blue wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:12 pm
Isn’t St. Louis pursuing airport privatization?
It's more like Rex Sinquefield is pursing airport privatization.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:18 am
by normalthings
beautyfromashes wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:03 pm
What is the average costs of our city debt? If it’s cheap money, why pay it off?
We have a debt/liability load that is much higher than comparable cities(probably linked to low density. I just threw debt payments out as an option.

My top preferred destinations for the funds would be:
1. Public Transit Cap Ex
2. Education Cap Ex potentially including UMKC
3. Complete Street Infrastructure

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:21 am
by mykem
Better mass transit, streets with curbs and storm drains along with more sidewalks, and bike lanes.

Re: We are getting a new airport!!!

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:54 am
by warwickland
FangKC wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:58 pm
Eon Blue wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:12 pm
Isn’t St. Louis pursuing airport privatization?
It's more like Rex Sinquefield is pursing airport privatization.
this...and rex sinquefields "projects" are falling apart.