Heart of America Rapid Transit

Transportation topics in KC
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TheLastGentleman
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Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Hey check this out

Image

Image
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normalthings
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by normalthings »

2013 plan. I don’t know much about it but do remember it crossing my desk.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by KCPowercat »

So why didn't you approve it?
mykn

Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by mykn »

Is that second picture showing a subway?
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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by TheLastGentleman »

mykn wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:17 pm Is that second picture showing a subway?
Yup
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normalthings
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by normalthings »

mykn wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:17 pm Is that second picture showing a subway?
Yes. The proposal is for a rapid transit (heavy rail) system which includes some below ground (subway) portions.
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alejandro46
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by alejandro46 »

No gondolas ?
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taxi
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by taxi »

What a bore.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by Sani »

Why does the Green Line become the Blue Line north of the river? Is it not the same line? Are people expected to transfer at the downtown airport station?

Also, the way the map was designed, I thought it had to be a mid-80s proposal until I zoomed in and saw references to the Sprint Center and Legends. There is no excuse for such a craptastic map to be made in 2013.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by KCPowercat »

That's why it never succeeded. Bad map.
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GRID
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by GRID »

What a terrible master plan. When will people understand that there is pretty much ZERO justification for any sort of fixed rail to KCI Airport, let alone heavy rail.

There is also ZERO justification for any sort of fixed rail to the Legends/Speedway. There is nowhere near enough density, population or potential ridership in Platte or Wyandotte Counties for such an expense.

Rail in KC (light rail, not heavy) would only work in the I-70 corridor through the east side, past the stadiums and into the jackson county suburbs.

Commuter rail might work in the I-35 corridor, but with so many jobs in JoCo now (that are spread all over hell), there is probably no point today.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

^ Move the Royals DT and even that wouldn’t work.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by flyingember »

GRID wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:46 pm What a terrible master plan. When will people understand that there is pretty much ZERO justification for any sort of fixed rail to KCI Airport, let alone heavy rail.
Realize that rail doesn't NEED to have justification by itself. Rail to the airport is a great plan when you take away the need for a multi-billion dollar widening of I-29
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normalthings
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by normalthings »

flyingember wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:53 pm
GRID wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:46 pm What a terrible master plan. When will people understand that there is pretty much ZERO justification for any sort of fixed rail to KCI Airport, let alone heavy rail.
Realize that rail doesn't NEED to have justification by itself. Rail to the airport is a great plan when you take away the need for a multi-billion dollar widening of I-29
This is true. However, there are a number of urban core routes with higher demand that should be built first (Independence Ave, 31st/Linwood, County Club to Waldo?, )

What taxing power does KC have for transit? I have been reading up on Salt Lakes quarter cent transit tax and their rapidly expanding system.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by grovester »

flyingember wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:53 pm
GRID wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:46 pm What a terrible master plan. When will people understand that there is pretty much ZERO justification for any sort of fixed rail to KCI Airport, let alone heavy rail.
Realize that rail doesn't NEED to have justification by itself. Rail to the airport is a great plan when you take away the need for a multi-billion dollar widening of I-29
The scenario most likely to happen is building light rail to the airport and STILL needing to widen I29.
Last edited by grovester on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:56 pm
What taxing power does KC have for transit? I have been reading up on Salt Lakes quarter cent transit tax and their rapidly expanding system.
It has 0.875 cents of sales tax towards transit already.
0.375 all goes to the bus system, most of the remaining 0.5 does too.
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by DaveKCMO »

Sorry, gents. There will be no rail -- light or heavy -- in your lifetime south of UMKC or north of NKC... especially not to the airport. The ridership, density, and federal support just isn't there.

If you disagree, go sell the shit yourselves to elected officials once they get the price tag (or accept the required land use changes).
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normalthings
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by normalthings »

DaveKCMO wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:01 pm Sorry, gents. There will be no rail -- light or heavy -- in your lifetime south of UMKC or north of NKC... especially not to the airport. The ridership, density, and federal support just isn't there.
A few semi related questions:
-What do you see our streetcar system looking like in 5,15,20, and 50 years?
-When do you think we will expand north to NKC?
-When do you think we will expand east/west?
-Is there any place you envision an additional N/S line?
-How far do you believe we will expand in these directions?
-How can we get involved?
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GRID
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by GRID »

flyingember wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:53 pm
GRID wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:46 pm What a terrible master plan. When will people understand that there is pretty much ZERO justification for any sort of fixed rail to KCI Airport, let alone heavy rail.
Realize that rail doesn't NEED to have justification by itself. Rail to the airport is a great plan when you take away the need for a multi-billion dollar widening of I-29
There is just no way. Not in the next 50 years. A light rail line to KCI would cost at least 1.5 billion dollars. Probably closer to 2.5 billion. It would get no federal money at all (terrible stats) and ridership would be so low that it would cost a fortune to operate. Widening a few spots of 29 (mainly just from 169 to 35, adding another lane under 635 etc) is probably a 100-200 million dollar project.

I-29 is not very busy and will probably not need to be widened beyond six lanes for at least 20-30 years if ever. If any widening happens in the Northland in the next 20 years, it will be 169 or 35.

Very very few people would use a train from downtown to KCI. That is a very long route for such a low density corridor. A high end express coach bus route from the plaza to KCI via downtown would be far more user friendly and comfortable for airport users about about 1.5 billion dollars cheaper.

KC just needs to concentrate on building a high quality street car system in the urban core with a better regional bus system to feed into it.

Like I said, light rail might work along the I-70 corridor (only on the MO side), but considering that I-70 on the MO side still looks like shit along most of the route because Modot throws random stop gap band aids at it rather than a full rebuild which was needed 15-20 years ago, a rebuilt 70 with light rail is a long shot. But it's the only way to make rail work in metro KC. Running rail along the old RR right of way through Raytown is a joke and will probably only move 1500 people a day. Gotta spend some money and build a real transit line or not do it all and I don't see KC, Jackson County or Missouri spending any money, let alone what it would take to build a true light rail line in dedicated ROW that is properly designed to attract 30-50k riders a day.

That's my opinion anyway. :)
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by DaveKCMO »

normalthings wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:01 pm
A few semi related questions:
-What do you see our streetcar system looking like in 5,15,20, and 50 years?
-When do you think we will expand north to NKC?
-When do you think we will expand east/west?
-Is there any place you envision an additional N/S line?
-How far do you believe we will expand in these directions?
-How can we get involved?
5 years: Streetcar runs from UMKC to the riverfront, bus network revised to feed streetcar spine, regional funding MAYBE (if not, at least our local 3/8-cent sales tax will be re-upped in 2023 before it expires in 2024 -- fares might go away). Regional ridership increase but not enough to offset increased cost of operations (primarily labor). Streetcar operations unionized.

15 years: If we don't ever get regional funding, the bus system continues to shrink and the streetcar continues to do well. Light automation of streetcar and bus possible with customer service function still staffed by humans. If regional funding is approved, it will not include streetcar expansion but instead a low-capital program that massively increases coverage and frequency in three to nine counties (depending on what level voters approve and where).

20 years: Original four cars replaced (25 year lifespan). Still no expansion. All operations automated.

50 years: Humanitarian crisis fueled by climate change. Who the hell knows?

East/west expansion is most likely on Linwood, if it ever happens. It's got space, population, federal support, link to stadiums/Rock Island. TDD model won't work, unless it's a very large TDD (and we know how that went in 2014). If we found the money to build it, we'd go no further than downtown Raytown (as "fast streetcar" in dedicated ROW). No additional N/S expansion.

Join KCRTA. Contact your elected officials. Let them know it's important to you. Vote Democrat (sorry, but it's true). RIDE THE SYSTEM WE HAVE NOW AND DEAL WITH IT.
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