Heart of America Rapid Transit

Transportation topics in KC
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grovester
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by grovester »

DaveKCMO wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:01 pm Sorry, gents. There will be no rail -- light or heavy -- in your lifetime south of UMKC or north of NKC... especially not to the airport. The ridership, density, and federal support just isn't there.

If you disagree, go sell the shit yourselves to elected officials once they get the price tag (or accept the required land use changes).
Didn't mean to leave the impression I thought that a line to the airport was ever going to happen.

But if it ever did, it wouldn't prevent the need to widen the freeway.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

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DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:46 am
normalthings wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:01 pm
A few semi related questions:
-What do you see our streetcar system looking like in 5,15,20, and 50 years?
-When do you think we will expand north to NKC?
-When do you think we will expand east/west?
-Is there any place you envision an additional N/S line?
-How far do you believe we will expand in these directions?
-How can we get involved?
5 years: Streetcar runs from UMKC to the riverfront, bus network revised to feed streetcar spine, regional funding MAYBE (if not, at least our local 3/8-cent sales tax will be re-upped in 2023 before it expires in 2024 -- fares might go away). Regional ridership increase but not enough to offset increased cost of operations (primarily labor). Streetcar operations unionized.

15 years: If we don't ever get regional funding, the bus system continues to shrink and the streetcar continues to do well. Light automation of streetcar and bus possible with customer service function still staffed by humans. If regional funding is approved, it will not include streetcar expansion but instead a low-capital program that massively increases coverage and frequency in three to nine counties (depending on what level voters approve and where).

20 years: Original four cars replaced (25 year lifespan). Still no expansion. All operations automated.

50 years: Humanitarian crisis fueled by climate change. Who the hell knows?

East/west expansion is most likely on Linwood, if it ever happens. It's got space, population, federal support, link to stadiums/Rock Island. TDD model won't work, unless it's a very large TDD (and we know how that went in 2014). If we found the money to build it, we'd go no further than downtown Raytown (as "fast streetcar" in dedicated ROW). No additional N/S expansion.

Join KCRTA. Contact your elected officials. Let them know it's important to you. Vote Democrat (sorry, but it's true). RIDE THE SYSTEM WE HAVE NOW AND DEAL WITH IT.
Is your rather conservative scenario regarding regional funding because you think the tax rate will be meager, or are there no routes that would score well enough to get funding assistance? Or is it suburban politics?
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

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1. No route beyond the urban core would score well for federal transit IMO (see the 2008 light rail plan).
2. Rail is very expensive to build and only getting more expensive -- local money spent on capital won't ever be available for operations.
3. If you add rail to one part of the region, others will want it too (suburban politics -- see the 2008 light rail plan).
4. The Kansas City region is right of center, so a PAYGO or low-capital regional plan is best IMO (would be even better if it included trails/bike infrastructure).
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grovester
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

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DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:58 am 1. No route beyond the urban core would score well for federal transit IMO (see the 2008 light rail plan).
2. Rail is very expensive to build and only getting more expensive -- local money spent on capital won't ever be available for operations.
3. If you add rail to one part of the region, others will want it too (suburban politics -- see the 2008 light rail plan).
4. The Kansas City region is right of center, so a PAYGO or low-capital regional plan is best IMO (would be even better if it included trails/bike infrastructure).
Understand it would have to be in the urban core. I would hope there might be some east/west candidates that could span the state line.

It almost seems like there needs to be a rail aspect, albeit a small one, to sell a regional tax to the area. Is there enough buzz in a bus only proposal?
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

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grovester wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:06 am It almost seems like there needs to be a rail aspect, albeit a small one, to sell a regional tax to the area. Is there enough buzz in a bus only proposal?
Polling will lead the way. I'm convinced rail isn't necessary for a yes vote because it won't work in the counties that need to start contributing (Johnson, Clay, Platte).
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

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I don't understand this desire for an overly spread-out, costly regional transit system. Certainly not rail. There will never be a truly effective solution here.

Our best hope is to build out a fraction of the region as transit accessible, then focus intensely on building it up. We are in the very first stages here. If folks want a truly transit accessible lifestyle, they can live in this corridor, as long we make it a focus.

We are never going to have effective transit for the masses up to Liberty, or MCI, or out to OP. A rapid bus to the airport with like 2 or 3 stops seems like something worth pursuing and/or subsidizing, however.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

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GRID wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:02 am
flyingember wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:53 pm
GRID wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:46 pm What a terrible master plan. When will people understand that there is pretty much ZERO justification for any sort of fixed rail to KCI Airport, let alone heavy rail.
Realize that rail doesn't NEED to have justification by itself. Rail to the airport is a great plan when you take away the need for a multi-billion dollar widening of I-29
There is just no way. Not in the next 50 years. A light rail line to KCI would cost at least 1.5 billion dollars. Probably closer to 2.5 billion. It would get no federal money at all (terrible stats) and ridership would be so low that it would cost a fortune to operate. Widening a few spots of 29 (mainly just from 169 to 35, adding another lane under 635 etc) is probably a 100-200 million dollar project.

I-29 is not very busy and will probably not need to be widened beyond six lanes for at least 20-30 years if ever. If any widening happens in the Northland in the next 20 years, it will be 169 or 35.

Very very few people would use a train from downtown to KCI. That is a very long route for such a low density corridor. A high end express coach bus route from the plaza to KCI via downtown would be far more user friendly and comfortable for airport users about about 1.5 billion dollars cheaper.

KC just needs to concentrate on building a high quality street car system in the urban core with a better regional bus system to feed into it.

Like I said, light rail might work along the I-70 corridor (only on the MO side), but considering that I-70 on the MO side still looks like shit along most of the route because Modot throws random stop gap band aids at it rather than a full rebuild which was needed 15-20 years ago, a rebuilt 70 with light rail is a long shot. But it's the only way to make rail work in metro KC. Running rail along the old RR right of way through Raytown is a joke and will probably only move 1500 people a day. Gotta spend some money and build a real transit line or not do it all and I don't see KC, Jackson County or Missouri spending any money, let alone what it would take to build a true light rail line in dedicated ROW that is properly designed to attract 30-50k riders a day.

That's my opinion anyway. :)
It's obvious you don't understand the problems I-29 faces and it needs far more than $200 million in work. It's not a number of lanes issue, is an interchanges issue, and they have problems which won't be cheap to fix.

I-29 southbound into the 29/35 split needs work as it backs up now. Between 169 and 635 needs major work even though it is already 4 lanes, it is horribly designed and requires you to cut across 2 lanes in a short amount of area, if you are coming from 169 northbound and are heading to 29N like many people. 29 south approaching 635 is getting bad, and can back up to 64th st exit some mornings, and those coming up from 56th st have to merge across 2 lanes of heavy traffic in like 100 feet which is dangerous AF. Barry/152 are getting busier and those exits are already too close together. The fact that it's a cloverleaf (can't believe MODOT allowed a new cloverleaf) means it will that interchange alone will need $250+ million as 152 traffic keeps getting heavier. Don't forget twin creeks area is expected to gain 40,000 new residents and I would expect many of them to work in JOCO which means taking 29 to 635.

The major interchanges of I-29 are too damn close to other intersections because it was a horribly deigned highway which means the upgrades are going to get expensive. (29/35 too close to davidson and parvin; 29/635 is on top of 56th and riverside exits, and 29/152 is on top of barry road exits. those 3 choke points will need more than a billion alone. So upgrade those 3 interchanges, or build a light rail line? I vote light rail, but that isn't going to be what happens.

The 64th st and 72nd st exits will probably be changed to diverging diamonds within 5-10 years knowing modot, and those will be the cheapest upgrades of the route.

Now 169 from 29 all the way up to smithville can be upgraded much cheaper with essentially no bridge work, really just needs axillary lanes between the exits and is maybe like $100 million worth of work would make a massive upgrade, while 29's interchanges will make it's upgrade expensive AF.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

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rxlexi wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:56 am I don't understand this desire for an overly spread-out, costly regional transit system. Certainly not rail. There will never be a truly effective solution here.

Our best hope is to build out a fraction of the region as transit accessible, then focus intensely on building it up. We are in the very first stages here. If folks want a truly transit accessible lifestyle, they can live in this corridor, as long we make it a focus.

We are never going to have effective transit for the masses up to Liberty, or MCI, or out to OP. A rapid bus to the airport with like 2 or 3 stops seems like something worth pursuing and/or subsidizing, however.
I'm more convinced than I was in the past the system needs to do something different.

Upgrade the bus first. Take the top corridors and run a bus every 5 to 10 minutes on them. N. Oak, State, Indep Ave, Broadway, Metcalf, etc.

Add more dedicated bus lanes.

Have more local area service like NKC has so you don't need to go as many places with the main routes. Implement less stops in downtown and this special service zig zags around downtown taking on tourists and serving as the last mile for transfers. Can have several different routes defined.

Then over time the idea if a line hits a certain minimum ridership level over several years this triggers upgrades. This doesn't mean only train, it could mean doubling the frequency of bus service.

That said, it feels like going for a high density rail spine makes sense. Something like NKC to UMKC N-S and Broadway to Prospect E-W. If we're going to send all busses to the same point bus service should terminate at the streetcar to reduce duplication into downtown. If you remove 2 miles from a 7 mile route you can run the remaining 4 miles more often or go 2 miles further somewhere on the system.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

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dnweava wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:23 pmBetween 169 and 635 needs major work even though it is already 4 lanes, it is horribly designed and requires you to cut across 2 lanes in a short amount of area, if you are coming from 169 northbound and are heading to 29N like many people.
It's gotten bad enough in that section that if I need to go that way during the afternoon rush, I'll exit at 9 and take Platte/Gateway back to I-29 specifically to skip around that segment. It might take slightly longer, but it's certainly safer and less stressful.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by flyingember »

scooterj wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:05 pm
dnweava wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:23 pmBetween 169 and 635 needs major work even though it is already 4 lanes, it is horribly designed and requires you to cut across 2 lanes in a short amount of area, if you are coming from 169 northbound and are heading to 29N like many people.
It's gotten bad enough in that section that if I need to go that way during the afternoon rush, I'll exit at 9 and take Platte/Gateway back to I-29 specifically to skip around that segment. It might take slightly longer, but it's certainly safer and less stressful.
I work in the Crown Center complex. My daycare stop each morning and afternoon is in NKC. It's as quick and less stressful to take Burlington and Oak both directions. It's triple the number of lights too.

They need to remove lanes between 169 and 635. More lanes encourage people to jocky back and forth for position.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by normalthings »

Houston is proposing $2 Billion + in light rail lines. Roughly $1.8 Billion is dedicated to two rail lines with an expected ridership of ~2,800 pax/day each.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by DaveKCMO »

normalthings wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:24 pm Houston is proposing $2 Billion + in light rail lines. Roughly $1.8 Billion is dedicated to two rail lines with an expected ridership of ~2,800 pax/day each.
Houston is:

1. Big
2. Rich
3. Growing

We are just big.
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Re: Heart of America Rapid Transit

Post by normalthings »

DaveKCMO wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:01 pm
normalthings wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:24 pm Houston is proposing $2 Billion + in light rail lines. Roughly $1.8 Billion is dedicated to two rail lines with an expected ridership of ~2,800 pax/day each.
Houston is:

1. Big
2. Rich
3. Growing

We are just big.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was not supporting their efforts. I was trying to show stats of another city building LR to their airport - and why the ridership numbers don’t work out for the price.
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