Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
7
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
13
19%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
11
16%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
7
10%
City/County Wide Rail Project
24
36%
Other
5
7%
 
Total votes: 67

alejandro46
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:49 pm

The Next Rail study provides the exact type of systemwide rail planning and alignment review that is needed. Decision makers already have a good idea of which areas are most suited for Streetcar and transit-oriented development. Armour is awesome, but no streetcar was needed for the development to take place. 31st/Linwood and Indep. avenue have much greater potential for development in the future vs. development that already occurred.

http://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uploa ... erview.pdf

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beautyfromashes
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beautyfromashes » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:31 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:
beautyfromashes wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote: Since no one is planning for this, it hasn't been decided. 8)
And I guess no time or money can been spent on planning on a larger rail network due to the stupid Dejanes initiative vote.
Actually, the city can do all of the planning they want after Q1 was modified by Council vote...
So, you said no one is planning for this, but said the city has picked Linwood as the E/W route, but we chose to move the Linwood Main St stop to 31st and dump E/W cars into the middle of N/S streetcar traffic on Main?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:52 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:
beautyfromashes wrote: And I guess no time or money can been spent on planning on a larger rail network due to the stupid Dejanes initiative vote.
Actually, the city can do all of the planning they want after Q1 was modified by Council vote...
So, you said no one is planning for this, but said the city has picked Linwood as the E/W route, but we chose to move the Linwood Main St stop to 31st and dump E/W cars into the middle of N/S streetcar traffic on Main?
The city approved an expansion plan based on NextRail... four years ago. It was Main Street to 51st, Linwood to Prospect, and Independence to Prospect.

Since then their larger TDD plan failed at the ballot box, one route was plucked from the ashes and a smaller TDD passed by the people, Q1 was narrowly approved then modified, and no one is doing systemwide planning for streetcar beyond the Main Street and Riverfront extensions at this time.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:17 pm

I still think that the price of a line to Brookside was way over exaggerated. I should have a basic report done sometime this summer about this.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by kcmiz » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:00 pm

normalthings wrote:I still think that the price of a line to Brookside was way over exaggerated. I should have a basic report done sometime this summer about this.
I agree this was a missed opportunity not extending to Brookside or Waldo as part of Phase II.

I suspect the political will was not there to fight the NIMBYs, even if they were a small (but vocal) minority.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:05 pm

Good info on growth areas.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/07/ ... wn/566078/
The 22-35 age group has mostly been moving into the near suburbs 3-10 miles from downtown as the 0-3 mile range.
The most interesting is the 10+ mile range grwoth is now static.

10 miles is
Claycomo
About Barry and N. Oak
Parkville the close side of Riss Lake
KCK through about 80th
75th and I-35
Bannister Rd and Troost
The close side of Raytown
Downtown Independence

This backs up existing knowledge and quantify shorter 5 mile lines distance commuter lines. A streetcar system that reaches 5 miles in 5 directions would serve the most popular growth areas and encourage moving into existing suburbs instead of greenfield development.

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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:41 pm

There was a group at Union Station today with what looked like schematic type drawings of a jackson county rail system. They said something about having a campaign office open up soon, going on city visits, and some other things. Talked a bit about the Rock Island Corridor,etx
They were pretty obviously not associated with any of the usual suspects (Dave,Clay, etc).

Does anyone know more about this?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Chris Stritzel » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:23 pm

normalthings wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:41 pm
There was a group at Union Station today with what looked like schematic type drawings of a jackson county rail system. They said something about having a campaign office open up soon, going on city visits, and some other things. Talked a bit about the Rock Island Corridor,etx
They were pretty obviously not associated with any of the usual suspects (Dave,Clay, etc).

Does anyone know more about this?
I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of light rail system would be proposed again. They may want to start a campaign to have voters decide on construction a wide range system.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:02 pm

normalthings wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:41 pm
There was a group at Union Station today with what looked like schematic type drawings of a jackson county rail system. They said something about having a campaign office open up soon, going on city visits, and some other things. Talked a bit about the Rock Island Corridor,etx
They were pretty obviously not associated with any of the usual suspects (Dave,Clay, etc).

Does anyone know more about this?
News to me. Not to humblebrag, but I think I'd know about something legit. Jackson County has pretty much lost interest in all things transit since Sanders left, and the railroads scuttled his plan (and I doubt the prices or attitudes have changed).

There is a rogue group -- Citizens for Progress? -- that always shows up at KCATA board meetings to lobby for "cheap" elevated rail or a fantasy subway plan that's been cooked up for awhile. They don't have any backers or political support, as far as I know.

Also, there's no office space available at Union Station and we all know the billion dollar price tag of modifying the trench for more trains there...

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:07 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:02 pm
normalthings wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:41 pm
There was a group at Union Station today with what looked like schematic type drawings of a jackson county rail system. They said something about having a campaign office open up soon, going on city visits, and some other things. Talked a bit about the Rock Island Corridor,etx
They were pretty obviously not associated with any of the usual suspects (Dave,Clay, etc).

Does anyone know more about this?
News to me. Not to humblebrag, but I think I'd know about something legit. Jackson County has pretty much lost interest in all things transit since Sanders left, and the railroads scuttled his plan (and I doubt the prices or attitudes have changed).

There is a rogue group -- Citizens for Progress? -- that always shows up at KCATA board meetings to lobby for "cheap" elevated rail or a fantasy subway plan that's been cooked up for awhile. They don't have any backers or political support, as far as I know.

Also, there's no office space available at Union Station and we all know the billion dollar price tag of modifying the trench for more trains there...
I would expect you to know of any legitimate plans. If the group is ever out and about again I’ll try to get more information from them. They mentioned their office was going to be in Raytown if that helps. It very well could be that Citizens for Progress group you mentioned.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:23 am

Image
Image

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:37 am

Two of those corridors weren't part of the 2014 study (39th to KU Med and into downtown KCK). So this is a sign the project is moving away from downtown and east side projects and into being more of a regional commuter system with a focus on high value targets that can pay the property taxes needed for a local match.

If we could build all these corridors, DMU commuter rail into downtown becomes feasible. This list would create an ~5 mile from downtown employment core in a circle from downtown KCK to NKC to the east side to the plaza to KU Med where bus lines can intersect at the closest line.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by earthling » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:48 am

Looking at the list of possible routes, would suggest Independence Ave. or North KC over HOA Bridge for Phase 3.

Indie Ave already most dense population in metro and already has a fairly significant commercial stretch, which should attract investment and improve over the future. It's not just about getting people into jobs and building up TOD but also getting outsiders to visit the new stretches, increasing tax revenue for the area. Indie Ave and North KC (especially downtown) have enough substantial commercial vitality to more quickly build up into TOD stretches outsiders might eventually visit. 18th St to SW Blvd too but would rather see another new line extended further out of downtown. But an 18th St/SW Blvd free circulator bus would be nice. KCK could work if going through W Bottoms but otherwise too much of a gap. 39th St. is a natural for another MAX line. Don't use streetcar technology for I70 corridor - pursue commuter rail instead or those new electric trams hitting Asia.

Are they planning Phase 3 to also be free to ride?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:23 am

earthling wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:48 am
Looking at the list of possible routes, would suggest Independence Ave. or North KC over HOA Bridge for Phase 3.
I would like to see us move towards both for 2028-2030 construction start. However, it looks like we are going to do MAX in these routes instead.

What’s hampering us is large contingency requirements which lead to the $100M+ per mile that is budgeted for the UMKC extension. That’s just too much for many more TDDs to support. We need to figure out a way to do this cheaper (I think it’s possible) and we need regional funding (cough sell KCI cough).

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by earthling » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:30 am

New electric trams on wheels that look just like streetcar may cut costs but may not attract TOD (transit-oriented development). Fixed rail should be used for lines that we'd most want to see TOD, areas that have potential to attract outsiders to that new stretch. TOD developers like fixed rail over non-rail as the later line could change in future.

Pursue MAX and these electric trams for moving people into jobs or for district circulators or well established destinations, not for stretches intended to create new destination TOD...
Image

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:04 pm

earthling wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:48 am
Looking at the list of possible routes, would suggest Independence Ave. or North KC over HOA Bridge for Phase 3.

KCK could work if going through W Bottoms but otherwise too much of a gap.
I-70 replaced the original elevated streetcar route. I like the idea of following actual businesses at street level but an express route between downtowns would be hugely beneficial for KCK and help sell their involvement. Terminate so it hits their downtown transit center at the very least.

It also is good PR for trains. That person stuck in traffic on the viaduct will be able to see the train pass them by at full speed.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by earthling » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:12 pm

There are different schools of thought on appropriate forms of transit and the line it runs along. The streetcar technology we use could work as a commuter line to KCK as you described but my position (for KC) is that it's better to use streetcar to attract new destination TOD, not as commuter service. Commuter rail, MAX (if true BRT) and the electric tram along dedicated lane might work better for KCK stretch though streetcar could work if going through West Bottoms, creating new street level TOD along the way.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by kas1 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:38 pm

earthling wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:30 am
New electric trams on wheels that look just like streetcar may cut costs but may not attract TOD (transit-oriented development). Fixed rail should be used for lines that we'd most want to see TOD, areas that have potential to attract outsiders to that new stretch. TOD developers like fixed rail over non-rail as the later line could change in future.
Developers don't care about what might happen to transit in the future. They barely care about it in the present. They'll build dense housing anywhere it's allowed by zoning where the property values support it. Transit should be built for its transit value. Building it to spur construction is a huge scam in the vast majority of cases.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by earthling » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:58 pm

There are TOD specific developers out there who specifically seek out rail lines because they don't change compared to say bus lines that might. The developer from Denver who bought much of Delaware St specifically calls himself a TOD developer and he is on this site. I'm talking TOD developers, not developers in general.

edit: I do agree that transit overall should be built for transit value but different technologies of transit should target particular uses and streetcar is a good form to target TOD developers. That is, the only difference between MAX and streetcar in function is that streetcar's rail aspect will target TOD developers, most BRT won't, especially KC's not very fixed version of BRT.
Last edited by earthling on Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by FangKC » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:59 pm

I don't see the Northeast residents ever voting to set up the tax district for the Independence Avenue expansion. I have yet to encounter anyone who supports a streetcar in this neighborhood. You might be able to extend one to around Independence Avenue and Woodland if you could get some pro-streetcar developer to buy up all the land along the route, and be willing to tax itself for the project. Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences would probably support it.

I have never seen traffic backed up on the Intercity Viaduct (I-70). It's usually only when you reach the North Loop trench that the traffic slows.

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