Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
6
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
10
17%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
10
17%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
5
9%
City/County Wide Rail Project
22
38%
Other
5
9%
 
Total votes: 58

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 16442
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:35 am

Eon Blue wrote:According to this 1925 atlas, there were turning wyes at Prospect and Indiana on those lines. There was no through service east of main, though.

http://www.historicmapworks.com/Atlas/U ... City+1925/
Well that certainly confirms it. Thanks for the correction, all! I'll let Tom know.

flyingember
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6596
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:35 am

There's some interesting historic info in this atlas around density. It shows just how much the streetcar enabled suburban living and how aside from downtown, how much of the density we have today came to the urban core after the streetcar began declining. Nearly all of midtown density arose in the bus era.

003 and 002 was the core of downtown. By The Paseo the city is firmly suburban.
009 has a streetcar maintenance building way out at Van Brunt.
014, 015, 023 is part of the crossroads. In 1925 along Grand was quite dense as an expansion of downtown but move to 16th and Central or 16th and Cherry and it's all low density single family housing.

072, 073 is the heart of westport. Main St is lined with single family homes for much of this area

The plaza is 082, 083, 092, 093. This is super early but it shows how the Plaza was a suburban shopping center surrounded by suburbs for blocks.
one interesting thing, the single most historic thing on the plaza was gas stations. I count five.

moderne
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3970
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:50 pm
Location: downtown

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by moderne » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:14 pm

"Nearly all midtown density arose in the bus era?" I don't think so. The bus era began after WWII. Much of what would consider midtown density would have been built between 1925 and WWII. When the streetcars began to go is when midtown began to have more parking lots and not much was built except the 2 1/2 story garden apartments(with parking lots) in the sixties.

flyingember
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6596
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:04 pm

moderne wrote:"Nearly all midtown density arose in the bus era?" I don't think so. The bus era began after WWII. Much of what would consider midtown density would have been built between 1925 and WWII. When the streetcars began to go is when midtown began to have more parking lots and not much was built except the 2 1/2 story garden apartments(with parking lots) in the sixties.
The bus era absolutely began before WW2
The articles arent online but the titles give good information

1925 happens to be the year the system was transferred to the Public Service Company.

1925- http://www.kchistory.org/content/bus-gr ... gotiations (may reference the first bus operations being July 1925)
1925- http://www.kchistory.org/content/buses- ... ansas-city (route discussion)
1935- http://www.kchistory.org/content/kansas ... bus-system (mentions the well established bus system)
1938- http://www.kchistory.org/content/kansas ... mploye-sic (about the transition to busses)
1941- http://www.kchistory.org/content/street ... sas-city-0

I could get better dates from the streetcar history book if I was at home, but here's a book page that backs up my statement about the 1920s being when the decline started.

https://books.google.com/books?id=1YZ2C ... re&f=false

I do remember from the streetcar history book said that they were going to kill several streetcar lines but the war put a pause on it as they needed the transit capacity down to Bannister because there wasn't enough space for parking

The last streetcar ran in 1957, so nothing that happened in the 1960s could have impacted the streetcar
Last edited by flyingember on Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

moderne
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3970
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:50 pm
Location: downtown

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by moderne » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:12 pm

Just basing from oral histories and anecdotal stories from parents, aunts, uncles and other elders who relied wholly on streetcars in all areas of the metro as it was then from the 1930s through the post-war years.

aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12246
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:59 pm

FWIW, the Kansas City Public Service company started to replace streetcars with "motor buses" in 1933 with an abandonment of an East/West rail line from Troost to Summit along 33rd, 25th and 24th Streets. This was 2 years after abandoning its first line that ran in front of Union Station. In the future the firm would replace streetcars with buses as a cost savings measure starting with avoid paying for repairs on the Intercity Viaduct and to avoid paying a portion of a new bridge in the Blue River Valley. In 1937 the firm also started to use "trolley buses" that were buses using the overhead power lines instead of providing their own power.
Ridership on streetcars/motor buses/trolley buses went from 135,097,194 in 1923 down to 66,702,322 in 1940. Of course it has a bump during the war years to 132,871,037 in 1944. Ridership peaked in 1946 with 135,826,821 and dropped to 46,288,356 in 1957 and continued dropping to 15,127,049 in 2001.

alejandro46
Pad site
Pad site
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:24 pm
Location: North Plaza

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:07 pm

I thought this info would be interesting for this forum, but was unsure where to put it. Just other things to consider about how well our system seems to be working compared to the issues that our co-buyers in Cincinnati have had. They originally has had some ambitious expansion plans that have virtually ground to a halt in the face of strong political opposition. The Cincinnati Bell Connector has also faced substantial reliability issues, funding problems, tanking ridership, and operational/mgmt issues.

-Who's in charge? When it comes to decision making, there are three bosses for the streetcar. Depending on the issue, it might up to the city, the transit authority or operator Transdev to find a solution.
-Ridership isn't anywhere close to meeting projections, even though they were lowered as the streetcar entered this fiscal year. Cincinnati had 578,641 rides taken in 2017, compared to Kansas City, where there were 2,060,425 rides – three times as many riders.
-Streetcar vehicles built by manufacturer CAF-USA have so many problems – air compressors, heating, braking, propulsion and power failures – they likely need to be completely rebuilt. The city is so upset it has stopped paying CAF for repairs. Records show the system had 122 problems that led to it being taken out of service. Here too, Kansas City, which has the same vehicles as Cincinnati, doesn't seem to be experiencing as many problems.
-Private operator Transdev can't keep staff on hand. The company's situation is complicated by the fact that its portion of the streetcar contract was bid at $3.3 million, less than what it's costing Transdev to operate the system.
-The system is running at a deficit, with advertising, naming rights and fare revenues all below estimates. It would be even worse if the city paid all of Transdev's invoices, but disputes have held up payments, allowing finances to seem better than they are.
(https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/p ... 377015002/)

Cincinnati streetcar to-do list:

Hire a director.

Create a nonprofit.

Check on traffic study.

Fix broken vehicles.

Develop a marketing campaign.

Circle back to the idea of a special taxing district.


. . . What the motion doesn't do: call for ridership to be free. Councilman David Mann pitched that idea Tuesday in a motion of his own, which surprised Landsman who has been vetting streetcar issues in his committee all year. Landsman isn't against the idea, he said, but thinks more study is needed . . .
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/p ... 629909002/

flyingember
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6596
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:54 am

The starting point for our success came from KC having a competent board. You can't over value this. That we don't have visible problems with operations as a whole is a huge credit to the board. Starting with a conservative financing model that figured out how to fund everything in full from day 1 was the next big contributor to success.

I'm especially intrigued about their vehicle problems they're having. Remember that KC doesn't just have the same kind of vehicles. The KC board literally bought from the same order with the same technical specs to save time.

brewcrew1000
Penntower
Penntower
Posts: 2140
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:10 am
Location: Broadway/Gilham according to google maps

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by brewcrew1000 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:27 pm

I think this is a perfect Phase 3 route, its one of the denser sections of the city with parking/traffic somewhat difficult along the entire stretch and its a route commuters/students would most likely take going to KU Med or working in the Service industry restaurants along 39th.

Stops at Paseo/Armour
Armour/Troost
Armour Gilham or Main
Armour/Broadway
Broadway/39th
39th/Bell or Stateline

Image
Last edited by brewcrew1000 on Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

flyingember
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6596
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by flyingember » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:29 pm

That’s not bad as far as a route goes.

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 16442
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:33 pm

Why Armour when it's already been striped for bike lanes and is now one lane in each direction? Also, the city's already on record with streetcar on Linwood, so I would default to that first (even west of Main).

User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4086
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beautyfromashes » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:40 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:Why Armour when it's already been striped for bike lanes and is now one lane in each direction? Also, the city's already on record with streetcar on Linwood, so I would default to that first (even west of Main).
But, there isn't a stop on Linwood with the new extension. They'd have to add another stop with Armour and now 31st St already planned. Seems this should have been considered if Linwood was the E/W choice.

brewcrew1000
Penntower
Penntower
Posts: 2140
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:10 am
Location: Broadway/Gilham according to google maps

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by brewcrew1000 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:51 pm

In however many years phase 3 would get built the striping would probably need to be redone anyway. I just think Armour has the density of people, the right businesses,and lots students who would use it. Linwood has nothing going, its not pedestrian friendly, its a hodgepodge of suburban/urban looking buildings and you never see people walking on linwood.

Armour is a different story. You have students, young professionals, young families and High School kids (Academie Lafayette, Cristo Rey in proxmity)- The Academie Lafayette teachers and interns they get every year from France also rely heavily on mass transit to get around.
I think that is the perfect recipe for a streetcar line.

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 16442
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:23 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:Why Armour when it's already been striped for bike lanes and is now one lane in each direction? Also, the city's already on record with streetcar on Linwood, so I would default to that first (even west of Main).
But, there isn't a stop on Linwood with the new extension. They'd have to add another stop with Armour and now 31st St already planned. Seems this should have been considered if Linwood was the E/W choice.
You can just turn on Linwood and stop on Linwood east of Main. No stop on the Main Street extension required.

User avatar
KCPowercat
Power & Light
Power & Light
Posts: 28426
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by KCPowercat » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:47 pm

So still ran as one line? I was reading this assuming an EW line would be a separate line.

User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4086
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beautyfromashes » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:48 pm

Seems inefficient to run E/W and N/S on the same track, even if for one block.

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 16442
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:55 pm

KCPowercat wrote:So still ran as one line? I was reading this assuming an EW line would be a separate line.
Since no one is planning for this, it hasn't been decided. 8)

User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4086
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beautyfromashes » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:14 pm

DaveKCMO wrote: Since no one is planning for this, it hasn't been decided. 8)
And I guess no time or money can been spent on planning on a larger rail network due to the stupid Dejanes initiative vote.

bspecht
Parking Garage
Parking Garage
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:31 pm
Location: DC
Contact:

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by bspecht » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:07 pm

It's important to keep the routes intuitive, jogs make things significantly more difficult to understand.

Personally, I think rail works better without setbacks – so against our Boulevards standards. 18th & 31st would be my ideal E-W, to start with.

~2028 Grid Concept | Blue = KC Streetcar | Red = MAX

Image

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 16442
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:12 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote: Since no one is planning for this, it hasn't been decided. 8)
And I guess no time or money can been spent on planning on a larger rail network due to the stupid Dejanes initiative vote.
Actually, the city can do all of the planning they want after Q1 was modified by Council vote (because planning is a power granted by the Charter and an ordinance -- even if narrowly approved by voters -- cannot change the Charter). The remaining restriction is on acquiring property for streetcar expansion (which KCATA, PortKC, or the Streetcar Authority can do without needing to ask KCMO voters for permission).

Post Reply