Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
5
14%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
6
16%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
7
19%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
3
8%
City/County Wide Rail Project
14
38%
Other
2
5%
 
Total votes: 37

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ldai_phs
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Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby ldai_phs » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:13 pm

With the Union Station to UMKC Extension through 2 of 4 hoops and the North Shore Extension also in the works, I thought I'd put together a poll on what people think will be next.
The Mayor has mentioned an East/West Route as his preferred phase three. The Next Rail study puts a Linwood Route high on its list with a Country Club Route far below. Yet the study failed to take into account a CCROW rail line wouldn't run in the street and thus the per mile cost would be a fraction of what was quoted.
Others call for a light rail line from downtown to the Airport/Cerner/Stadiums. In my experience, support for rail is gaining among traditional no votes (the old and suburbanites). Maybe a Better KCI style, city-wide rail campaign in the next 5-10 years would be passable?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby grovester » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:24 pm

Unless you've got East side approval in hand, why bother with east/west? I would hope their opinions had changed over the interim.

If they aren't onboard, I'd go to NKC.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby TheLastGentleman » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:29 pm

Any idea how the study got the cc line estimate so wrong? Seems like a big thing to not take into account

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby ldai_phs » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:30 pm

grovester wrote:Unless you've got East side approval in hand, why bother with east/west? I would hope their opinions had changed over the interim.

If they aren't onboard, I'd go to NKC.

Linwood area had strong community support I believe. NKC was studied but there just isn't enough money yet to support anything.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby ldai_phs » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:51 pm

TheLastGentleman wrote:Any idea how the study got the cc line estimate so wrong? Seems like a big thing to not take into account

The Next Rail study used the Main Street Streetcar Price Per Mile cost for all the routes they looked at. By using the CCROW, a pre graded former rail line, the cost is cut down from the ~$30/mile they used to closer to the single digit millions. As far as I can tell, CCROW doesn't require tearing apart the street and nearly as many utility moves as the main street route did.

My Estimates:
Track: $1 Million Per Route Mile - 8 route miles if we double track from UMKC to Waldo. Figure from BNSF manager and Local Rail Contractor
Electrification: $1.5 Million per Dble track route mile - figure from Northeast Electrification
Stops: $300K-600K per stop - this cost varies wildly on the number of stops and what exactly they are.
Switches: $50K per standard switch. - at least one needed at the end of the line, 1-3 crossovers would be preferred. Figure from multiple sources
Rail Vehicles: Urbos 3 or Urbos 3 TT ($4-5 Million each) - Need 4-7. Varies on the level of service wanted. IIRC 4 were recommended to start
Others:
Wooden fencing: I assume fences would need to be put up between the line and peoples backyards, certain parks, and the trail at tight spots
Utility movement: Wooden Electric Line down part of the ROW. May need to be moved. I believe was there w/ original streetcar line
Trail replacement: Existing trail would need to be rebuilt after construction. Laying a gravel train won't be that expensive.
Grade Crossings: $250K each. Maybe needed if we want faster "light rail" speeds on this line.
Etc: anything else

Overall though, this adds up to a price lower than what they estimated. But, I am no expert. I could have missed things or such.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby grovester » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:12 pm

ldai_phs wrote:
grovester wrote:Unless you've got East side approval in hand, why bother with east/west? I would hope their opinions had changed over the interim.

If they aren't onboard, I'd go to NKC.

Linwood area had strong community support I believe. NKC was studied but there just isn't enough money yet to support anything.


I'd want to see the voter data all the way to 71. I'm thinking the last plan got hammered.

I'm all for it, but you have to lay the ground work. Note how Go bond and KCI performed.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby chingon » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:41 pm

ldai_phs wrote:The Mayor has mentioned an East/West Route as his preferred phase three.



Maybe he won’t fuck this one up as bad as he did the last east side plan. But I doubt it.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby NorthOak » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:43 pm

(1) NKC or (2) Independence Ave

Linwood n Prospect are both dead holes. No one is going to invest.
They are cesspools of crime.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby flyingember » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:22 am

NKC provides access to a huge number of blue collar jobs. Indep Ave provides access to a lot of people who need better access to jobs

Those are my top two assuming the service on either is better than the current bus service in frequency and hours.

Both combined seems like a good combination. Selling better access to jobs seems like a smart selling point.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby ToDactivist » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:35 am

KC is 1/2-1/3 the density needed for comprehensive light rail
commuter rail to outliers including KCI makes sense though with hidden agenda of bringing skilled labor/brainpower into KC
Long term however KC will need 1-2 E-W corridors like 12th or 18th or 31st or not.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby earthling » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:42 am

NorthOak wrote:(1) NKC or (2) Independence Ave


These two make most sense for next streetcar expansion with commuter rail to burbs. Most Brooksiders don't want it, though Waldo probably does.

And it would be great to see ATA pursue free bus mostly metro or city wide. Dave mentioned that as a possibility, maybe holding off until next streetcar expansion plan is approved. There are a lot of small city/district free bus systems but nothing as big as city wide at KC's size. That would draw attention to companies looking to expand/move.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:59 am

if you're curious about election results from 2014, here you go: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx1_a ... DVxdUVOd3c

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby earthling » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:22 pm

Dave, any possibility ATA pursues a totally free fare bus system (or most of system free).

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:47 pm

earthling wrote:Dave, any possibility ATA pursues a totally free fare bus system (or most of system free).


possible, yes.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:54 pm

ldai_phs wrote:
TheLastGentleman wrote:Any idea how the study got the cc line estimate so wrong? Seems like a big thing to not take into account

The Next Rail study used the Main Street Streetcar Price Per Mile cost for all the routes they looked at. By using the CCROW, a pre graded former rail line, the cost is cut down from the ~$30/mile they used to closer to the single digit millions. As far as I can tell, CCROW doesn't require tearing apart the street and nearly as many utility moves as the main street route did.

My Estimates:
Track: $1 Million Per Route Mile - 8 route miles if we double track from UMKC to Waldo. Figure from BNSF manager and Local Rail Contractor
Electrification: $1.5 Million per Dble track route mile - figure from Northeast Electrification
Stops: $300K-600K per stop - this cost varies wildly on the number of stops and what exactly they are.
Switches: $50K per standard switch. - at least one needed at the end of the line, 1-3 crossovers would be preferred. Figure from multiple sources
Rail Vehicles: Urbos 3 or Urbos 3 TT ($4-5 Million each) - Need 4-7. Varies on the level of service wanted. IIRC 4 were recommended to start
Others:
Wooden fencing: I assume fences would need to be put up between the line and peoples backyards, certain parks, and the trail at tight spots
Utility movement: Wooden Electric Line down part of the ROW. May need to be moved. I believe was there w/ original streetcar line
Trail replacement: Existing trail would need to be rebuilt after construction. Laying a gravel train won't be that expensive.
Grade Crossings: $250K each. Maybe needed if we want faster "light rail" speeds on this line.
Etc: anything else

Overall though, this adds up to a price lower than what they estimated. But, I am no expert. I could have missed things or such.


Will the locals support a plan that takes away their walking trail?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby ldai_phs » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:07 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
ldai_phs wrote:
TheLastGentleman wrote:Any idea how the study got the cc line estimate so wrong? Seems like a big thing to not take into account

The Next Rail study used the Main Street Streetcar Price Per Mile cost for all the routes they looked at. By using the CCROW, a pre graded former rail line, the cost is cut down from the ~$30/mile they used to closer to the single digit millions. As far as I can tell, CCROW doesn't require tearing apart the street and nearly as many utility moves as the main street route did.

My Estimates:
Track: $1 Million Per Route Mile - 8 route miles if we double track from UMKC to Waldo. Figure from BNSF manager and Local Rail Contractor
Electrification: $1.5 Million per Dble track route mile - figure from Northeast Electrification
Stops: $300K-600K per stop - this cost varies wildly on the number of stops and what exactly they are.
Switches: $50K per standard switch. - at least one needed at the end of the line, 1-3 crossovers would be preferred. Figure from multiple sources
Rail Vehicles: Urbos 3 or Urbos 3 TT ($4-5 Million each) - Need 4-7. Varies on the level of service wanted. IIRC 4 were recommended to start
Others:
Wooden fencing: I assume fences would need to be put up between the line and peoples backyards, certain parks, and the trail at tight spots
Utility movement: Wooden Electric Line down part of the ROW. May need to be moved. I believe was there w/ original streetcar line
Trail replacement: Existing trail would need to be rebuilt after construction. Laying a gravel train won't be that expensive.
Grade Crossings: $250K each. Maybe needed if we want faster "light rail" speeds on this line.
Etc: anything else

Overall though, this adds up to a price lower than what they estimated. But, I am no expert. I could have missed things or such.


Will the locals support a plan that takes away their walking trail?

No, but the right of way is wide enough for both the streetcar and the rail to co exist.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby ldai_phs » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:08 pm

earthling wrote:
NorthOak wrote:(1) NKC or (2) Independence Ave


These two make most sense for next streetcar expansion with commuter rail to burbs. Most Brooksiders don't want it, though Waldo probably does.

And it would be great to see ATA pursue free bus mostly metro or city wide. Dave mentioned that as a possibility, maybe holding off until next streetcar expansion plan is approved. There are a lot of small city/district free bus systems but nothing as big as city wide at KC's size. That would draw attention to companies looking to expand/move.

The Next Rail Study noted strong support from the local community for a CCROW Expansion. Main concerns that support hinged on was parking, keeping the trail, and safety.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:51 pm

the right of way is 100' in most sections. plenty of room. people forget this because some of the space is currently leased for surface parking.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby KCtoBrooklyn » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:02 pm

Extending through Waldo no the CCROW (and then maybe down to Three Trails/Cerner) might be the most useful extension, but I think there is still too much neighborhood opposition, so it didn't get might vote.

Independence Ave would be a good extension, but I voted for Linwood to Michigan (somewhat selfishly since I live nearby). I don't think extending east of 71 would have much value (aside from appeasing East Side leaders) unless it went all the way to the stadiums. Going to Michigan could be a good starter route, with possible eastward expansion later.

Did the original Linwood extension route go west of Main? I seem to remember it stopping there, but it seems like going west to SW Tfwy so it would reach Penn Valley CC would be a valuable destination. It may not be the most practical, but I would love to see it keep going west from there and go down Karnes Blvd through Roanoke Park and terminate at 39th and Wyoming (or keep going to KU Med).

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby tower » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:13 pm

KCtoBrooklyn wrote:Extending through Waldo no the CCROW (and then maybe down to Three Trails/Cerner) might be the most useful extension, but I think there is still too much neighborhood opposition, so it didn't get might vote.

Independence Ave would be a good extension, but I voted for Linwood to Michigan (somewhat selfishly since I live nearby). I don't think extending east of 71 would have much value (aside from appeasing East Side leaders) unless it went all the way to the stadiums. Going to Michigan could be a good starter route, with possible eastward expansion later.

Did the original Linwood extension route go west of Main? I seem to remember it stopping there, but it seems like going west to SW Tfwy so it would reach Penn Valley CC would be a valuable destination. It may not be the most practical, but I would love to see it keep going west from there and go down Karnes Blvd through Roanoke Park and terminate at 39th and Wyoming (or keep going to KU Med).


Broadway is close enough to walk. Not exactly comfortably, but it is close enough. I don't think extending west of main would be worth it unless it went down 39th.


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