Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
6
11%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
10
18%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
10
18%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
5
9%
City/County Wide Rail Project
21
38%
Other
4
7%
 
Total votes: 56

alejandro46
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby alejandro46 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:50 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:Light rail makes more sense to the TSC. This would also connect eastern suburbs to DT with Park and Ride to the RM.


I disagree, in my opinion the purpose of these streetcars is connecting neighborhoods with frequent stops. It would could more and be more inefficient for a commuter rail which would stop less and be more disruptive to the community as it would require it's own alignment.

In addition, standardizing gauges and equipment will result in purchasing and operation cost efficiencies. Top speed of streetcars is 47mph or so, it may be longer than driving but it should be sufficient to make it to the airport. I would only see need for commuter rail for JoCO/Rock Island RR alignments - where there are centralized "park and ride" type opportunities to connect disparate towns/suburbs.
Last edited by alejandro46 on Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby tower » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:00 pm

alejandro46 wrote:
beautyfromashes wrote:Light rail makes more sense to the TSC. This would also connect eastern suburbs to DT with Park and Ride to the RM.


I disagree, in my opinion the purpose of these streetcars is connecting neighborhoods with frequent stops. It would cost more and be more inefficient for a commuter rail which would stop less and be more disruptive to the community as it would require it's own alignment.

In addition, standardizing gauges and equipment will result in purchasing and operation cost efficiencies. Top speed of streetcars is 47mph or so, it may be longer than driving but it should be sufficient to make it to the airport. I would only see need for commuter rail for JoCO/Rock Island RR alignments - where there are centralized "park and ride" type opportunities to connect disparate towns/suburbs.


We could use the streetcars we use now, but unless we want it to take forever to get to the TSC, we need to get rid of a lot of the stops. If we want a predictable, reliable time over that distance, we would have to give the "streetcar" its own ROW, even if it is in the middle of the street. If we have more distance between stops, we might as well have larger platforms, so we can link the "streetcars" together, and... now we have light rail.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby alejandro46 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:26 pm

tower wrote:
alejandro46 wrote:
beautyfromashes wrote:Light rail makes more sense to the TSC. This would also connect eastern suburbs to DT with Park and Ride to the RM.


I disagree, in my opinion the purpose of these streetcars is connecting neighborhoods with frequent stops. It would cost more and be more inefficient for a commuter rail which would stop less and be more disruptive to the community as it would require it's own alignment.

In addition, standardizing gauges and equipment will result in purchasing and operation cost efficiencies. Top speed of streetcars is 47mph or so, it may be longer than driving but it should be sufficient to make it to the airport. I would only see need for commuter rail for JoCO/Rock Island RR alignments - where there are centralized "park and ride" type opportunities to connect disparate towns/suburbs.


We could use the streetcars we use now, but unless we want it to take forever to get to the TSC, we need to get rid of a lot of the stops. If we want a predictable, reliable time over that distance, we would have to give the "streetcar" its own ROW, even if it is in the middle of the street. If we have more distance between stops, we might as well have larger platforms, so we can link the "streetcars" together, and... now we have light rail.


I'd like to understand the proposed impacts on (a) connectivity, (b) development, and (c) total trip impact for dedicated ROW vs. Stadium alignment. This is something can be mixed of course- but I think it would generally be more disruptive to buy up a dedicated ROW. This is something that is going to require extensive study. I would be willing to get more of a & b in exchange for a longer trip - plus we can increase the number of streetcars and have express vehicles on gamedays.

Overall though, is the consensus that Linwood 31st is the logical next spur after UMKC?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby beautyfromashes » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:47 pm

alejandro46 wrote:
Overall though, is the consensus that Linwood 31st is the logical next spur after UMKC?

What I hear is that the consensus is that the Plaza extension will be the last in the foreseeable future for streetcar. The east side had there chance to have rail through their neighborhoods and blew it by voting it down. An extension to Waldo or over the river would be my best guess, but not likely. Light Rail to the suburbs and TSC would come from regional transportation push and run on existing rail lines and connect to streetcar in the RM. Dave can give more clarity though.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby shinatoo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:49 pm

I don't see any point in streetcar to TSC. Unrealistic that there will be baseball played there in 20 years, and 20 events a year at Arrowhead don't justify it. If rail ever gets built on the Rock Island then there will be a stop for TSC.

Only way I would be for a line to TSC is if the Hunts and Glasses are willing to pay for it. They get the benift, have already gotten enought from the community, and they would be tied into keeping the teams there or picking up the tab for the lost investment if they move.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby Eon Blue » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:59 pm

The North Oak/I-29 interchange is a mess. Rebuild it as part of the project.

Has there ever been a diverging diamond / streetcar combo? :lol:

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby alejandro46 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:00 pm

Eon Blue wrote:The North Oak/I-29 interchange is a mess. Rebuild it as part of the project.

Has there ever been a diverging diamond / streetcar combo? :lol:


The internet delivers: https://www.mccrossan.com/projects/dive ... nterchange

Image

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby flyingember » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:37 am

Interesting design. Problem is that ROW looks to be about 60 feet wider than N. Oak is at I-29.

I would actually do something different. Don't widen underneath I-29 and put a roundabout in place of the Vivion/N Oak intersection. Realign the off ramp to directly connect as an entrance into it instead of connecting to N. Oak.

It wouldn't be hard to make a two lane roundabout as part of a road diet. Trains handle roundabouts just fine.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby kcjak » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:21 am

A roundabout with a train involved sounds like a horrible idea for a region where people aren't used to maneuvering around a train.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby tower » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:01 am

kcjak wrote:A roundabout with a train involved sounds like a horrible idea for a region where people aren't used to maneuvering around a train.


It would have to go straight through the middle. I can't find it now, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a picture of a tram going through a roundabout like that in Poland.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby GRID » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:06 am

tower wrote:
kcjak wrote:A roundabout with a train involved sounds like a horrible idea for a region where people aren't used to maneuvering around a train.


It would have to go straight through the middle. I can't find it now, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a picture of a tram going through a roundabout like that in Poland.


It's common in Europe. There are some in the US too. I remember this on in SLC:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7587107 ... a=!3m1!1e3

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby chingon » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:16 pm

kcjak wrote:A roundabout with a train involved sounds like a horrible idea for a region where people aren't used to maneuvering around a train.

Chicken/egg.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby flyingember » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:34 pm

People learned diverging diamonds extremely quickly. They would learn this way too.

“Yield to train” is really easy to figure out if the alternative is being hit in the side by a train

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby normalthings » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:07 pm

chingon wrote:
kcjak wrote:A roundabout with a train involved sounds like a horrible idea for a region where people aren't used to maneuvering around a train.

Chicken/egg.

Pedestrains were not used to yielding the Public ROW to cars yet they generally figured it out pretty quickly once they got run over

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:04 am

There is no serious plan or discussion about rail beyond river to UMKC streetcar.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby alejandro46 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:35 am

shinatoo wrote:I don't see any point in streetcar to TSC. Unrealistic that there will be baseball played there in 20 years, and 20 events a year at Arrowhead don't justify it. If rail ever gets built on the Rock Island then there will be a stop for TSC.

Only way I would be for a line to TSC is if the Hunts and Glasses are willing to pay for it. They get the benift, have already gotten enought from the community, and they would be tied into keeping the teams there or picking up the tab for the lost investment if they move.


It's likely an extension like this wouldn't even start serious planning for 10+ years - UMKC is projected to not be functional until '22-23, who knows about the River Market spur either. The economic and Federal funding environment and ridership of the UMKC extension will obviously play a big part in that timing of consideration of another major extension.

The stadiums have been there since 1972 and hundreds of millions were spent to remodel fairly recently. It's important to keep the teams happy and in KCMO, but Schulte's DT stadium study and talk of that is more a pipe dream imho - not that I have any inside info. The lease is up in 2030. It's good to have estimated costs on a new stadium but as I stated in my original comment, a streetcar to TSC accomplishes twin goals of neighborhood revitalization and connecting TSC to downtown at a lot less than a brand new stadium.

That is what my original comment was about a page or two back- in the medium term the 31st & Linwood loop alignment makes the most sense to me extending to TSC and the NextRail study seemed to back that up as the third rated alignment. I know that Trolley trail may be less expensive but I see that less opportunity to build density and not as transformation of a project in the community than east side.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby normalthings » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:44 am

alejandro46 wrote:
shinatoo wrote:I don't see any point in streetcar to TSC. Unrealistic that there will be baseball played there in 20 years, and 20 events a year at Arrowhead don't justify it. If rail ever gets built on the Rock Island then there will be a stop for TSC.

Only way I would be for a line to TSC is if the Hunts and Glasses are willing to pay for it. They get the benift, have already gotten enought from the community, and they would be tied into keeping the teams there or picking up the tab for the lost investment if they move.


It's likely an extension like this wouldn't even start serious planning for 10+ years - UMKC is projected to not be functional until '22-23, who knows about the River Market spur either. The economic and Federal funding environment and ridership of the UMKC extension will obviously play a big part in that timing of consideration of another major extension.

The stadiums have been there since 1972 and hundreds of millions were spent to remodel fairly recently. It's important to keep the teams happy and in KCMO, but Schulte's DT stadium study and talk of that is more a pipe dream imho - not that I have any inside info. The lease is up in 2030. It's good to have estimated costs on a new stadium but as I stated in my original comment, a streetcar to TSC accomplishes twin goals of neighborhood revitalization and connecting TSC to downtown at a lot less than a brand new stadium.

That is what my original comment was about a page or two back- in the medium term the 31st & Linwood loop alignment makes the most sense to me extending to TSC and the NextRail study seemed to back that up as the third rated alignment. I know that Trolley trail may be less expensive but I see that less opportunity to build density and not as transformation of a project in the community than east side.

I think politically an east/west line makes the most sense.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby flyingember » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:02 am

ldai_phs wrote:I think politically an east/west line makes the most sense.

The 2014 vote had two E-W lines and a bus improvements connected with the Main St expansion and the east side voted it down 70-30.
Think about that again. they voted against a project where 2/3 of the work would have been done on the east side.
I would say it has the least political chances of any lines.

south along the trolley trail has an organized opposition against using the trail, and we're seeing this being accounted for with the option for the 51st St stop to be in the street

N-S into NKC, stopping at 32nd, is into a town that voted yes for rail in 2008 when it didn't pass in KC and is going way farther than anything in KC has in terms of biking.
A northtown line is expensive to build because of the bridge but is the most viable politically.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby HalcyonKC » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:25 am

DaveKCMO wrote:There is no serious plan or discussion about rail beyond river to UMKC streetcar.

Frankly, I'd be fine with it remaining a circulator system for the densest part of the city--only extending it if the TDD voters themselves wanted a spur to hit a specific part of the city, or if there were an adjacent area deemed ripe for transformation / re-densifying development as is happening along Main. But I think the best prospects for developments like that right now are within the current TDD boundaries.

Maybe once the existing proposed extensions are complete, the discussion will turn to a parallel line within the existing TDD--say Broadway or another adjacent north/south arterial with ladder-rung spurs to close some loops back to the Main Street line--or a spur to take in 39th Street and hit KU Med. Any additional extensions will be so many years out, we'll have thousands of additional residents in the core and we'll have an idea of the level at which new development along Main hits equilibrium. We'll know where the remaining empty parking lots are. So we'll have an idea of the opportunity cost we're incurring by not running an additional line a few blocks over, and exactly where a new line might have the most impact.

If other areas of the metro have the demand and want to figure out a way to link into the existing system, fine. But personally I want to avoid having an expensive over-extended system that has to start charging fares and then enters the transit system death spiral of fares discouraging ridership which encourages higher fares and a disused system which becomes a drag on further development. I want the reverse--with free-to-ride being key--where owners of empty lots adjacent to the line are encouraged to redevelop to a much higher density and the system pays for itself in the form of new property tax revenue that would not have existed otherwise.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby flyingember » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:52 am

DaveKCMO wrote:There is no serious plan or discussion about rail beyond river to UMKC streetcar.

Not completely true. The Burlington corridor improvement plan accounted for improved transit in it's design. They're not talking about building streetcar, sure, but the plan does explicitly mention that they considered improved transit when planning this project.

That's more serious than anything we've seen from KC for further lines. The Indep Ave/Paseo intersection improvements didn't account for the streetcar and I didn't see anything about future integration with a E-W line at Linwood or 31st in the Main St expansion documents. I don't recall either actually mentioning bus integration as a major consideration at all.

Meanwhile you can find the Armour Road improvement docuements from NKC directly mentioning integration with this plan. They're working on an integrated set of documents for complete street improvements.

http://www.nkc.org/common/pages/Display ... Id=3787579

p 15
The integration of these transit stations into the design of the street was an important factor considered
as part of the overall corridor design. Examples of similar innovative design solutions were explored
and considered while formulating an appropriate transit solution for this particular application. Through
discussion with KCATA staff during the design process, a specific challenge was identified for providing
safe bus access to transit stations when adjacent to dedicated bicycle lanes and facilities


p 42
This design approach can eventually support enhanced bus service, bus rapid transit (BRT) service, and
other fixed-guideway transit service (streetcar or light rail). These bus service improvements can occur with
no change to the proposed roadway configuration, and the new stations can be designed to eventually
support these service offerings with integrated technology, conduits, and other related infrastructure
improvements that allow future adaptability and upgrades


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