Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Transportation topics in KC
Post Reply

Will You Vote for Chastain's August 2017 Ballot Item?

Yes
9
56%
No
0
No votes
Undecided
7
44%
 
Total votes: 16

JBmidtown
Colonnade
Colonnade
Posts: 748
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:31 am

Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by JBmidtown »

I want to hear all the pros and cons of Chastain's plan on the August ballot. Discuss.

Is it overall good for the city to develop a city wide sales tax? Will it provide quicker access to funds for infrastructure? Would Chastain sue if the item passes but the council retools his vision?
Last edited by JBmidtown on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WoodDraw
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3347
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:53 pm

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by WoodDraw »

I'm not convinced that we should be building out beyond the urban core right now. I don't know that we have the density or funds to support it and I think having negative press would be awful after such a successful year. Right now I believe in the slow growth plan that started with the downtown line, and I'm happy with the advocates in charge of it.

I also want Chastain no where near this city. I'll vote no.
flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9862
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by flyingember »

I think the results from it passing are better than not. The city has been weak in this area in recent years.
If it will pass, I won't try to make a guess.
It's possible the majority of consistent voters that had not rode the streetcar last November have by this August. If a good experience translates into voting yes for expansion is the wild card.
The last election saw every infrastructure tax increase pass so maybe that shows the trend or maybe that's the only big new tax people will say yes to. We just don't know.
It's been 8 years since a citywide rail election. To me, the latest TDD ballot numbers is a good sign for interest even if not definitive.
Also of note, the minimum wage item is on the same ballot. Will the east side turn out and vote for that and the whole city paying for improved transit mostly to the east side?

To me, I could see the amount raised covering about 10-15 miles of track beyond the track the expanded TDD builds. At least through NKC to I-29, a little more of the Indep Ave and Linwood lines than were up in 2014 and go well past UMKC down to Research. I don't think we'll find the money needed to go much further unless it's a federal match to do everything in the ordinance.

The lines as described largely follow the 2014 city streetcar plan with the 2009 light rail plan and a few pieces from earlier plans of his plus some bus extensions. So it's functionally a hybrid of the city plans and his plans. There's no incentive to completely retool the plan when the city has tried to get these routes built already.

It says nothing about the TDD in it but I imagine the TDD passing the needed match could be funded from this tax. Only a stupid person would argue that wouldn't help maximize what could be built.
Transform the city’s downtown streetcar system into a more rapid rail system (operating at faster speeds, with fewer stops and predominantly in new transit greenways separated from traffic) and also expand it into a more citywide streetcar system by adding 4 new lines: (a) a south line from Union Station to the Kansas City Zoo with intermediate stops at Penn Valley Park, Armour, Westport, the Plaza, UMKC, Rockhurst University, 57th St. & Troost, Brookside at 63rd St., and Research Hospital; (b) a north line from the City Market to the central northland with 2 intermediate stops; (c) an east line from downtown to the Jackson County Sports Complex with intermediate stops at Hospital Hill, Troost, Prospect, and the VA hospital; and (d) a second east line from downtown to the Old Northeast; and with express electric-bus service provided from the northern rail station to Twin Creeks Neighborhood and Kansas City International Airport, from the KC Zoo rail station to the Cerner Campus at Bannister and beyond, and from the Plaza rail station to Brookside, Waldo and South Kansas City; and
To break that up

1. south line from Union Station to the Kansas City Zoo with intermediate stops at Penn Valley Park, Armour, Westport, the Plaza, UMKC, Rockhurst University, 57th St. & Troost, Brookside at 63rd St., and Research Hospital.
This can follow the TDD plan and continue on south. It deviates from the 2009 plan by avoiding going down US 71 and the 2014 plan by needing to get to Rockhurst and 57th/Troost. Might have two branches based on the description

2. a north line from the City Market to the central northland
This seems like it's Burlington to N Oak as far as Gladstone. The 2009 rail plan could show this route through NE Vivion Rd

3. an east line from downtown to the Jackson County Sports Complex with intermediate stops at Hospital Hill, Troost, Prospect, and the VA hospital
This seems like it's the hospital hill routing of the Linwood/31st line and gets almost to the stadiums to connect to commuter rail

4. a second east line from downtown to the Old Northeast
this is clearly the Independence Ave line



The farther destinations like the airport, Cerner Campus and stadiums would be under this aspect of the ordinance
Establish a new electric mini-bus fleet and new bikeway feeder system to assist people in getting to and from streetcar stations without the need of a private automobile; and
If the busses must be electric is a good question. Wish he just would have said that expanded bus service would connect to the train in a less specific way

The ballot item is a little more clear than that
all for the purpose of constructing, maintaining and operating one or more extensions to the streetcar system, that might include a fleet of electric buses to transport people to and from light rail system stations and from a northern station to KCI, from the Kansas City Zoo to the new Cerner Campus, and from the Country Club Plaza to Brookside and south, or as much as can be constructed, maintained and operated with proceeds of the tax, including necessary bridges and other infrastructure?
In my opinion it provides the northland and east side a clear value for their vote to make a decision on while not pushing the cost only on a single part of town


His latest two ballot items have had one notable difference from earlier ones that's genius.
The city shall use the tax proceeds for the implementation and on-going operation and maintenance of as much as possible of the following Improvements to the City’s Public Transportation Infrastructure within Kansas City, Missouri city limits:
as can be constructed, maintained and operated with proceeds of the tax, including necessary bridges and other infrastructure
Let's say it passes.


There's a lawsuit risk in two areas.

1. if the city does nothing or says it can't be done. He ran into before when another plan of his (2007?) was thrown out because he dramatically underestimated the cost. It's clear he bypassed that problem with the "as can be"/"as much as" text.
2. If it's clear the city isn't maximizing the distance it can reach by picking expensive routes that are shorter. Remember, the city already studied these routes and has a close cost estimate, making this effort transparent

The wildcard on a lawsuit is do we need the busses with the rail or can be build just the rail? Would he say the ordinance is being ignored if the city doesn't add bus service to the northland or east side to connect to the train
User avatar
Highlander
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 10146
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:40 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by Highlander »

The Pro's: If it passes, it passes by a city wide vote and any attempts by anti-rail people in the city to stop a streetcar expansion by insisting on city wide elections is a moot point.

The Con's:

1. Chastain is involved. Always a problem.
2. Too ambitious. Most of it will never get built even if it passes and the city attempts to enact. It will likely lead to some fairly bitter battles about how and where the money is spent.
3. Although it's better than other Chastain plans, it still has a lot of poorly thought through notions. For instance, why would you ever put a rail line out to a singular office campus like Cerner. First of all, that kind of destination never makes any sense. No critical mass and, even if used by commuters, it would be empty at all times but rush hour when it would be mostly empty.
4. As above for the zoo.
5. KCI - as above but makes more sense than 3 and 4.
6. Did I mention that Chastain is involved?
Last edited by Highlander on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20024
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by DaveKCMO »

pros:

1. it's already baked and on the ballot (with minimum wage!).
2. it immediately cancels out Q1, if it passes (Q1 could immediately halt all city participation in expansion -- UMKC and riverfront).
3. it doesn't steal the KCATA bus tax and no gondolas (lessons learned).
4. it fills the $100M "trump gap" for the UMKC extension, allowing engineering/design/vehicle purchase to start immediately (otherwise we wait... 2, 4, more years?). also, "de-federalizing" the UMKC extension could make it open sooner than 2022.
5. it requires you only build what you can afford.
6. it includes (electric!) bus funding to the far-flung places it will never make sense to serve with streetcar.
7. it would provide incentive for NKC to renew their citywide TDD and get us across the river.
8. it includes routes that have already been partially studied (linwood, independence, main).
9. it goes east.

cons:

1. it's chastain.
2. chastain will sue.
3. all of the money goes to the city first (unlike the TDD taxes or the 3/8-cent KCATA bus tax).
pash
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3800
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:47 am

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by pash »

.
Last edited by pash on Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
joshmv
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:55 pm
Location: Overland Park

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by joshmv »

I'm still a fan of the gondolas.
kboish
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3258
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:25 am
Location: West Plaza

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by kboish »

JBmidtown wrote:I want to hear all the pros and cons of Chastain's plan on the August ballot. Discuss.

Is it overall good for the city to develop a city wide sales tax? Will it provide quicker access to funds for infrastructure? Would Chastain sue if the item passes but the council retools his vision?
Can you make a poll at the top of the page?
flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9862
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by flyingember »

joshmv wrote:I'm still a fan of the gondolas.
The idea of going over something to bridge a gap is valid. It's why the city is talking about a streetcar to the riverfront, because it's bridging a gap that's hard to walk.

Imagine money was no issue and we need to find a way to connect Crown Center better to Penn Valley Park. We could put one gondola terminus in Crown Center Square and the other at Liberty Memorial and go up and over Crown Center. That replaces a long walk and crossing Main and puts one end at a lot of parking. I'm sure there's better options but gondolas aren't immediately the stupidest thing ever for that route like going from Union Station to Liberty Memorial is.
flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9862
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by flyingember »

DaveKCMO wrote:pros:

1. it's already baked and on the ballot (with minimum wage!).
2. it immediately cancels out Q1, if it passes (Q1 could immediately halt all city participation in expansion -- UMKC and riverfront).
3. it doesn't steal the KCATA bus tax and no gondolas (lessons learned).
4. it fills the $100M "trump gap" for the UMKC extension, allowing engineering/design/vehicle purchase to start immediately (otherwise we wait... 2, 4, more years?). also, "de-federalizing" the UMKC extension could make it open sooner than 2022.
5. it requires you only build what you can afford.
6. it includes (electric!) bus funding to the far-flung places it will never make sense to serve with streetcar.
7. it would provide incentive for NKC to renew their citywide TDD and get us across the river.
8. it includes routes that have already been partially studied (linwood, independence, main).
9. it goes east.

cons:

1. it's chastain.
2. chastain will sue.
3. all of the money goes to the city first (unlike the TDD taxes or the 3/8-cent KCATA bus tax).
I agree with everything on this list except for the certainty he will sue. He has been working with the city attorneys in recent years to make his petitions legally valid.
The odds certainly aren't zero but you can't say "will" at this point.
aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12608
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

flyingember wrote:
joshmv wrote:I'm still a fan of the gondolas.
The idea of going over something to bridge a gap is valid. It's why the city is talking about a streetcar to the riverfront, because it's bridging a gap that's hard to walk.

Imagine money was no issue and we need to find a way to connect Crown Center better to Penn Valley Park. We could put one gondola terminus in Crown Center Square and the other at Liberty Memorial and go up and over Crown Center. That replaces a long walk and crossing Main and puts one end at a lot of parking. I'm sure there's better options but gondolas aren't immediately the stupidest thing ever for that route like going from Union Station to Liberty Memorial is.
Better yet make it zip lines back and forth.
JBmidtown
Colonnade
Colonnade
Posts: 748
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:31 am

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by JBmidtown »

kboish wrote:
JBmidtown wrote:I want to hear all the pros and cons of Chastain's plan on the August ballot. Discuss.

Is it overall good for the city to develop a city wide sales tax? Will it provide quicker access to funds for infrastructure? Would Chastain sue if the item passes but the council retools his vision?
Can you make a poll at the top of the page?
Done and done
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20024
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by DaveKCMO »

flyingember wrote: I agree with everything on this list except for the certainty he will sue. He has been working with the city attorneys in recent years to make his petitions legally valid.
The odds certainly aren't zero but you can't say "will" at this point.
i can, and i did, because he will. something will not go his way, and that is his only recourse. the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
mykn

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by mykn »

DaveKCMO wrote:
flyingember wrote: I agree with everything on this list except for the certainty he will sue. He has been working with the city attorneys in recent years to make his petitions legally valid.
The odds certainly aren't zero but you can't say "will" at this point.
i can, and i did, because he will. something will not go his way, and that is his only recourse. the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
The Donald will change once he's president!
joshmv
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:55 pm
Location: Overland Park

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by joshmv »

flyingember wrote:
joshmv wrote:I'm still a fan of the gondolas.
The idea of going over something to bridge a gap is valid. It's why the city is talking about a streetcar to the riverfront, because it's bridging a gap that's hard to walk.

Imagine money was no issue and we need to find a way to connect Crown Center better to Penn Valley Park. We could put one gondola terminus in Crown Center Square and the other at Liberty Memorial and go up and over Crown Center. That replaces a long walk and crossing Main and puts one end at a lot of parking. I'm sure there's better options but gondolas aren't immediately the stupidest thing ever for that route like going from Union Station to Liberty Memorial is.
I'm guessing you thought I was being sarcastic, but I legitimately like the idea. In certain use cases like you mentioned it could be the best option, and equally important, it's a fun thing to do that can also be a good way to showcase the city. People have asked about doing a ferris wheel but gondolas would be way better and would actually serve a purpose.
WoodDraw
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3347
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:53 pm

Re: Vote Yes or No? A Discussion on the Pros and Cons of Chastain's Plan

Post by WoodDraw »

DaveKCMO wrote:
flyingember wrote: I agree with everything on this list except for the certainty he will sue. He has been working with the city attorneys in recent years to make his petitions legally valid.
The odds certainly aren't zero but you can't say "will" at this point.
i can, and i did, because he will. something will not go his way, and that is his only recourse. the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
I agree with this. I don't always agree with the decisions made by the people in charge, but I think they are competent people with the best interest of the city at heart doing a thankless job. I want them in charge. I don't want this guy anywhere close to having a say in our transit.
Post Reply