KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Transportation topics in KC
miz.jordan17
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KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby miz.jordan17 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:15 am

I'm currently living in Chicago, and I have to admit the public transit here has me spoiled now. I'm so excited for Kansas City, though. I made a map that kind of outlines a vision for KCI to Streetcar transit, but it's obviously a dream. I'd love to hear everyone's ideas and opinions, with the understanding that it's just an idea and I'm not an expert. It was just for fun, but sometimes when a group of dedicated, passionate people get together, big ideas are formed and there's action.

Here's the link!
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... 55385&z=11

EDIT: I'm adding lines for the hell of it. Any suggestions, let me know!

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby flyingember » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:06 pm

Why would you get to the stadiums at grade, crossing a freight line? Keep on 31st and connect direct to the Rock Island rail corridor, with a new bridge over the Blue River.

Cutting down to Meyer from 63rd isn't bad, can see value there but would take it to a stop between starlight and the zoo.
Not sure I would get there via 55th, taking Volker to Rockhurst seems like a better route. Going on Troost is a must do to connect midtown jobs to the Troost cooridor.

I picture a line down Indep Ave towards the blue river industrial but have to rebuild the low railroad bridge or cut south to a new E-W road to avoid it.  Lots of economic opportunity along the river


The northland route is really weird.

I-29 is going to be stupid expensive to develop along, there's next to no extra space along it. At the very least, go via Riverside to cut the gap to NW 56th and can put a stop in that town. But even going up 29 avoids a huge opportunity.

Follow N. Oak to Barry to Zona Rosa. There's lots of land that could be something other than strip malls is along this area. It also gets to a part of the northland in crazy need of transit service or we'll end up with a freeway widening instead all the way to downtown and the north loop traffic will get so high removal will be hard to get.

Past Zona Rosa is the hardest section. I picture following Ambassador for jobs access. Bus service is being cut but it wasn't one seat to anywhere on the east side. Going via Cookhingham misses a possible direct route in a tunnel. Cut straight over at 112th. With two terminals gone could send rail under the runway and come back up where B and C are today at ground level

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby ldai_phs » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:14 am

Just read the Next Rail Studies. Why has Country Club ROW Lightrail/Streetcar not been looked into more deeply. The studies note strong community support coupled with medium-good development opportunities. It appears to me that the study far overestimated the price of the extension by using the price of in street rail per mile, which is much much higher than building good old wooden ties. Thoughts? I did some price calculations if anyone wants me to upload those too.

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby chaglang » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:50 am

People in Brookside seem to support the streetcar as long as it doesn’t touch the Trolley Trail. That was one of my takeaways from the Phase 2 vote.

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby dnweava » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:47 am

you can get about 50% of the metro within 2k of this rail network

Image

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby shinatoo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:40 am

I would think a spur into Grandview and Liberty would also pick up a significant portion of the population.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:25 am

ahem, i believe someone already did this detailed planning: http://www.kcsmartmoves.org/

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby GRID » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:03 am

dnweava wrote:you can get about 50% of the metro within 2k of this rail network

Image


I see this all the time. People always want to run rail on the I-70 corridor in KS to the speedway and they will even completely overlook the I-70 to Blue Springs corridor.

The entire county of WyCo has only about 150,000. Independence and Blue Springs alone has more than that entire county. Jackson County has 3/4 of a million people and all kinds of reasons to use transit other than the Legends.

I-70 in KS is wide open all the time, even during rush hour. Most of the corridor is not even developed. You see cows along I-70 right after passing 635.

I-70 in MO is congested all the time (one main reason is it's only six lanes but still). You have established bus commuter routes and park and rides on the MO side. There is almost no such need on the KS side.

The only destination on the KS side is the speedway area which 99.9999999% of visitors would drive to even if there were decent transit to the area. Most visitors to that area are from other suburban areas of KC. They drive and will always drive there. The current little bus route on State Ave is enough to serve employees etc.

The I-70 corridor has the sports complex which desperately needs transit to directly connect it to downtown. I don't even think running streetcars to the stadiums down linwood would have much ridership. Nobody other than stadium workers are going to take an hour or more long streetcar ride on slow surface streets from Crown Center or Downtown through ghetto east side neighborhoods and industrial areas to a ball game. And the few that do will overwhelm a smallish streetcar after a ballgame. They will take uber or something. But they would take a light rail that went right down I-70. That huge parking lot at the stadium could be free parking for downtown commuters reducing the parking demand for downtown workers, people going to concerts an other events. They don't even need all that parking for Royals games. They could reserve an entire lot for commuters on any day except Chiefs home games where are typically on Sundays so most wouldn't interfere with commuters.

A streetcar on a new Lewis and Clark transit way from the River Market to downtown KCK is the only transit WyCo will ever support and you are only looking at about two miles of streetcar for that.

The Nortland will never support rail either. Run a coach commuter bus from the Plaza to KCI every 30 minutes and bam, you have some of the best door to door urban core to airport transit service anywhere in the country. With the right infrastructure, such as park and rides with slip ramps I-29 that keep the buses on the freeway rather than exiting and getting back on and you also have wonderful,comfortable commuter line. It would work great because the I-29 corridor is not congested and the buses will move fast.

The only rail lines in KC should be:

Light rail from downtown to at least I-470, but possible as far as Blue Springs along a rebuilt I-70.

Commuter rail from Lee's Summit or Pleasant Hill on existing rail right of way to either Union Station or if that's not possible due to widening the KCT canyon, terminate it at the Sports Complex where people can transfer to light rail.

Commuter rail or light rail down the I-35 corridor. Even more unlikely than the MO side though. KS would never do it.

Jackson County should be doing more on their own. The county has the population, the commuting patterns and the attractions to build a solid transit system tying it to urban KCMO. There is just no leadership in KC to make it happen.

Thanks for letting me rant. :)

Oh and of course, extend the streetcar to Brookside and downtown NKC as well as the spur to downtown KCK and other spurs like to KU Med. But the region needs high end buses (coach commuter routes etc), true BRT and commuter rail/light rail to build out a comprehensive regional transit system.

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby dnweava » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:23 pm

GRID wrote:
I see this all the time. People always want to run rail on the I-70 corridor in KS to the speedway and they will even completely overlook the I-70 to Blue Springs corridor.

The entire county of WyCo has only about 150,000. Independence and Blue Springs alone has more than that entire county. Jackson County has 3/4 of a million people and all kinds of reasons to use transit other than the Legends.

I-70 in KS is wide open all the time, even during rush hour. Most of the corridor is not even developed. You see cows along I-70 right after passing 635.

I-70 in MO is congested all the time (one main reason is it's only six lanes but still). You have established bus commuter routes and park and rides on the MO side. There is almost no such need on the KS side.

The only destination on the KS side is the speedway area which 99.9999999% of visitors would drive to even if there were decent transit to the area. Most visitors to that area are from other suburban areas of KC. They drive and will always drive there. The current little bus route on State Ave is enough to serve employees etc.


I-70 to blue springs would be a good corridor too. But the legends is more than just the speedway, there are weekly sporting KC games and concerts out there too, plus NFM, cerner offices, etc. plus Wyco is poorer so I think a much higher percent of the population would be willing to use public transportation compared to blue springs. I think light rail to the east connecting the independence arena would be nice too, I'd probably go to more Mavericks games if that was the case.

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:27 pm

i oppose rail transit built in freeway medians. all the expense, none of the benefits.

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby TheBigChuckbowski » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:27 pm

I oppose building rail transit in all of suburban Kansas City (excluding NKC). Until they are interested in dense land use, it's all the expense, none of the benefits.

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby ldai_phs » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:02 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:i oppose rail transit built in freeway medians. all the expense, none of the benefits.

What is your opinion of the country club route? Keeping in mind the costs to construct is much closer to normal electric rail than the starter streetcar line.

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby dnweava » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:46 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:i oppose rail transit built in freeway medians. all the expense, none of the benefits.


if you look at the population maps, going down the freeways in JOCO or northland is really what makes sense as there is already a rail corridor next I-35 to use, and much of the apartment buildings and higher density is right along I-35 in JOCO. How else would you even run a light rail in JOCO? You get off I-35 and it is much more lower density and single family housing. Same with the northland, most of the aprtments are right along US169 and I-29 so it only makes sense to run the light rail to the airport down one of those 2 freeway corridors.

You don't have to run it in the freeway median, you can run it beside them, but the Chicago subway goes down some freeway medians and I see no problem with that in Chicago.

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby flyingember » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:24 am

In some places, yes.

Like down I-35 into JoCo it makes sense is to use the existing rail running next to 35. To get to Liberty/Kearney use the freight line that runs south of the bluffs through to Birmingham and then cuts right through the middle of Liberty

I-29, I-35 most of it's length, I-70, I-435 don't have substantial freeway medians most of the way so it's not possible to use them

US 169 in the northland is one of the few exceptions and it's not the densest part of the northland, that's along N. Oak. There's 10x the density when you realize there's only three notable apartment complexes along it between I-29 and Smithville and most of it is low density single family homes.

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby wahoowa » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:23 pm

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:I oppose building rail transit in all of suburban Kansas City (excluding NKC). Until they are interested in dense land use, it's all the expense, none of the benefits.

this seems right to me but i'm a feckless holder of transit opinions that doesn't put much thought into it other than reading this board and ignoring reddit

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby Highlander » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:34 pm

flyingember wrote:In some places, yes.

Like down I-35 into JoCo it makes sense is to use the existing rail running next to 35.


If Kansas would haven give up on the border war 25 years ago and simply built a light rail down I-35 to the state line, they (and the metropolitan area) would have been so much better off. Rather than paying companies and giving them tax breaks to move to KS from Missouri which produced absolutely no net gain for the state and probably contributed greatly to their current dismal financial situation, the could have simply achieved everything they had hoped to achieve with much less money spent. Rather than court companies that will never pay a cent in property taxes in Johnson County or result in any employee relocations, the light rail route would have offered a simple and easy way to siphon off residents from KCMO by providing them with transportation to their jobs. They could have built park and rides all along the route. It was a golden opportunity missed. Instead they took the difficult route which has helped put the state in a financial crisis and while they won some battles, they are losing the war badly right now.

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Re: KC Metro Transportation Ideas

Postby flyingember » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:59 pm

wahoowa wrote:
TheBigChuckbowski wrote:I oppose building rail transit in all of suburban Kansas City (excluding NKC). Until they are interested in dense land use, it's all the expense, none of the benefits.

this seems right to me but i'm a feckless holder of transit opinions that doesn't put much thought into it other than reading this board and ignoring reddit


So in other words, no rail transit past The Paseo or 47th St?

Parts of NKC are actually denser than parts of the urban core today. Go look at the lot sizes west of city hall in NKC, that neighborhood puts most of midtown to shame for density.

It would be smart to pair all rail transit plans with zoning changes that requires density with new projects along it. A new zoning type with zero setbacks and only allows higher density uses

The idea is not every corridor has that as appropriate. But you're not limiting yourself geographically with this idea. Keep in mind that rail on N. Oak to Barry is still closer in than sprawl at 150th St in Joco.


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