Streetcar to the riverfront

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:16 pm

JBmidtown wrote:Maybe percentages aren't the best way to denote progress since you can't readily quantify it in those increments. Maybe just say the feasibility phase is finished? Or maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe nothing matters. There will never be a streetcar that can cover the vastness of the void we live in.


a public involvement professional would give you a more digestible answer. i'm not that person.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby WoodDraw » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:43 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:
JBmidtown wrote:Maybe percentages aren't the best way to denote progress since you can't readily quantify it in those increments. Maybe just say the feasibility phase is finished? Or maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe nothing matters. There will never be a streetcar that can cover the vastness of the void we live in.


a public involvement professional would give you a more digestible answer. i'm not that person.


Have the two of you ever considered babysitting? I read these two replies and everyone fell asleep just by being close to me.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby flyingember » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:56 pm

[quote="JBmidtown”]There will never be a streetcar that can cover the vastness of the void we live in.[/quote]
We obviously can’t cover it all, so I think the goal should be to cover the top 20 general area destinations with high capacity transit. This should be a mix of streetcar, commuter rail, dedicated bus lanes running articulated busses.

After that the the 80-20 rule seems relevant. We can probably hit 80% of the population with a standard bus line from those cooridors and the last 20% would be really hard and probably will never be covered.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby Riverite » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:20 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 80-20 generally a business term to denote that typically 80% of a companies business is derived from 20% of its customers. Not that I don't think it's applicable. I would say instead of connecting 80% with all of the above aforementioned focus on the twenty percent now who will utilize the service the most and run lines to the other 60% who may use it, but less. The 20% would probably be the streetcar to umkc or Waldo. If we could get that done then connecting to airport or re owning around a proposed route to the airport to maximize future density may be in order.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby Riverite » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:21 pm

The twenty percent that would utilize 80% of the rides would most likely be those that both live and work along the suggested route

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby Riverite » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:25 pm

Maybe something like telling the northland okay you can zone everything but this 1 mile squared trail however you want "the market dictates I.e. NIMBYs allow." However this land will necessitate any new development to follow a grid pattern have a minimum density and give preference to multi use zoning

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:30 pm


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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby flyingember » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:13 pm

Riverite wrote:The twenty percent that would utilize 80% of the rides would most likely be those that both live and work along the suggested route

not necessarily. The idea is to encourage active use. Someone that bikes half a mile on each end is still a customer. The goal is to build a network to where we don’t have to take the expensive system to everywhere. That’s the 20%

Build it so you can get 80% of residents to be able to the train, even if a bus drops them off at it. The train going to the most popular destinations makes that work for more people by reducing transfers. This doesn’t need to be daily, if it’s a choice to go to the zoo and that’s all one family uses it that’s still a good result because it so widely available

There’s your 80-20 rule in play. 80% of people have transit as an option by taking it to 20% of the places people want to go. Then let busses handle the rest

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby Riverite » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:24 pm

I definitely agree with the twenty percent. I believe that transit should reach as many people as possible I just meant now that we are collecting data on the riders expand the system for the twenty percent of the city who use it often then use supplemental routes to connect. The key is to not pursuing expensive options for residents that don't or wouldn't use it but maybe still giving them an option.

Same could be said for bikes which twenty percent of roads are used the most by bikers. That's where we should focus on putting lanes in first, doesn't mean that we shouldn't put them elsewhere but our focus should be on the most popular roads (products) first.
I think tdds are a good way of showing this, at least in the near term, long term all areas of the city should pay for services they use.

This is what frustrates me about the suburbs they think it's okay to utilize services and create small areas which will allow them to evade the taxation for use.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby flyingember » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:07 am

This network idea of having the train cover the key destinations rather than trying to be for everyone can help explain why we've been doing transit elections wrong.

It's all about working with the existing network. The city understands this WAY better than Chastain but no one really gets this.

The next election must be about redoing the system. Like think about a train line to the zoo from UMKC. By itself this is an expensive route that doesn't really go anywhere. It serves two universities and a hospital and a lot of low density areas
But it would cross Troost and Prospect, Swope Parkway and can connect to a future commuter bus on 71.

Our problem with some of these "looks like a bad idea" routes is we keep trying to do the train the easiest way possible rather than making the best route considering the network and rethinking the bus system at the same time.

So the next election must be approving a major bus system redo, possibly with the free service tax and build a backbone train system.

So in this sense this rivefront line by itself is kind of stupid as a cost short term. If you look at it alone it's connecting to some apartments.
But long term it connects users to the future bike trail network that will eventually connect to the blue river trail all the way to the Katy Trail.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby JBmidtown » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:02 pm

WoodDraw wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:
JBmidtown wrote:Maybe percentages aren't the best way to denote progress since you can't readily quantify it in those increments. Maybe just say the feasibility phase is finished? Or maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe nothing matters. There will never be a streetcar that can cover the vastness of the void we live in.


a public involvement professional would give you a more digestible answer. i'm not that person.


Have the two of you ever considered babysitting? I read these two replies and everyone fell asleep just by being close to me.


Ouch!

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:44 pm

the final feasibility report has been released: http://kcstreetcar.org/about-streetcar/ ... extension/

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby KCPowercat » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:57 pm

Any guess on percent chance of this happening?

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby ldai_phs » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:32 pm

Says they are going to the next phase of the study and will try and get a Tiger Grant

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby KCPowercat » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:38 pm

Yup.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby im2kull » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:34 am

Subscribed

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby ToDactivist » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:33 pm

dont agree with this on a few levels. first if any KC local tax funds are used as the entire development is just oddly located and disconnected (walkable). Supposedly Port KC is so behind this for self-serving reasons they will sponsor/find the funds which seems to make it okay? Not if the trolleys times are longer not shorter. Already two too many stops and too long between trolleys. I find myself walking 80% of the time - which is a good thing but not when it could be better timed? So against anything that lengthens that interval and in general any development that wastes the opportunity (sic ground).

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby DaveKCMO » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:53 pm

TIGER grant application has been posted and explains the funding approach in detail: http://kcstreetcar.org/about-streetcar/ ... n/kc-core/

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby ToDactivist » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:04 pm

thanks. okay funded in part thru condo fees. hopefully then not pricing them out of the market.
dont ever see anyone using a "pedestrian land" on the bridge. wishful thinking. biking maybe.
again second concern is location. so every oddball development of scale can apply to get one-offs on the streetcar line? where does that stop and what master plan was altered to make the reach. My vote would have been stick to the plan at hand vs distractions. Denver too got jiggy with early success and now has two spurs of little use. ouch.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby DaveKCMO » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:18 pm

ToDactivist wrote:thanks. okay funded in part thru condo fees. hopefully then not pricing them out of the market.
dont ever see anyone using a "pedestrian land" on the bridge. wishful thinking. biking maybe.
again second concern is location. so every oddball development of scale can apply to get one-offs on the streetcar line? where does that stop and what master plan was altered to make the reach. My vote would have been stick to the plan at hand vs distractions. Denver too got jiggy with early success and now has two spurs of little use. ouch.


there isn't a streetcar-specific master plan yet. the 2014 expansion study looked at eight corridors and advanced three of them (and one of them -- main street -- will be built with the new TDD). but, yeah, if anyone else brought cash to the table for an extension it would at least be studied. and why not?

operationally, riverfront would only become a spur if you extend north of the river on the heart of america bridge. as of today, it would simply be the northern terminus of a 7-mile (!) streetcar line.

denver's biggest problem is they figured out TOD too late (and, of course, the regionalism that said "take light rail to golden!"). some of those suburban stations are horrible designs that prioritize park-and-ride over development.


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