Streetcar to the riverfront

Transportation topics in KC
pash
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Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby pash » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:20 pm

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Last edited by pash on Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby flyingember » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:15 pm

pash wrote:I think it's time for a dedicated thread. The RFP for the feasibility study went out yesterday, setting an aggressive timeline: a firm will be selected to do the study by the end of November, and the study is due in early May.

If things come back looking good, what's a realistic timeframe for the beginning of construction? Before, after, or about the same time as they start tearing up Main Street for the southward extension?


Depends on when they get funding for it. It's not part of the TDD vote and there's no way their projects can produce enough TDD taxes to self-fund rail. NKC has issues self-funding it's line with a major hospital and casino included.

I imagine this is basically a question of is it cheaper to build on the viaduct, what shape is it in, vs is it cheaper to build an elevated stop on a bridge to NKC from Columbus Park. The NKC line study didn't really cover the KC side of things. Maybe there's a way to build a bridge or connect to HOA from the riverfront without it needing to come from 3rd St so it's smaller and cheaper but doesn't block boat traffic. If anyone would know how to best assess this it's the Port Authority. They don't need to assess what a bridge would look like just say, we can build a bridge from this spot, we get to this spot via this route.

I come back to one route to both destinations as an idea because the easiest way to get the line is to share the cost. I have this idea of building the bridge and ending it at the far side of the river to start. Share the cost with NKC, ClayCo, KC, the state and a TDD at the riverfront as a combined ped/rail project to connect neighorhoods to the riverfront and job across the river. This bridge is obviously the hardest part about taking rail north and adding a riverfront stop to the mix makes sense.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby grovester » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:26 pm

Actually, the TDD goes right to the western edge of the park, so at least some of it could be paid for.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby flyingember » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:27 pm

grovester wrote:Actually, the TDD goes right to the western edge of the park, so at least some of it could be paid for.

The TDD tax can only be used for the route described on the ballot.

A new TDD would need to be formed to cover part of the funding or a vote held to cover this new line in the cost, likely with further expansion to raise the funds. If that direction is taken I imagine the route south is one vote, and this would be one that follows it.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby droopy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:47 pm

I'm not trying to be snarky, so I'm sorry if this comes off that way, but why is a streetcar to the riverfront park appealing? Maybe I'm out of date on my understanding on the plans for the area, only thing that seems to be moving forward is Bar-K. Isn't the mixed use development ideas really really far in the future if at?

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby pash » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:17 pm

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby flyingember » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:46 pm

The original petition says the route was determined by engineering. That would have finalized what the funding is for.

It's not for the route determined then and at future track for expansion.

So it would take new revenue to expand inside the current TDD

http://www.kcmayor.org/cms/wp-content/u ... 19jmnt.pdf

Item 8, page 4

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby pash » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:09 pm

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby grovester » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:29 pm

droopy wrote:I'm not trying to be snarky, so I'm sorry if this comes off that way, but why is a streetcar to the riverfront park appealing? Maybe I'm out of date on my understanding on the plans for the area, only thing that seems to be moving forward is Bar-K. Isn't the mixed use development ideas really really far in the future if at?


Obviously the goal is to get to Knuckleheads and Local Pig.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby flyingember » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:16 pm

pash wrote:That is not correct. Funding is approved for a project defined by the language I quoted above, which is taken directly from the document you linked. The project's legal definition does not include a specific route, and the existing TDD's board could decide to put new rail in the ground within the district's boundaries without going to voters for approval.

But this tangent is basically irrelevant to the discussion, as an extension to the riverfront would almost certainly go beyond the boundaries of the existing TDD.

Read the document as a whole. It's not the boundary that was only being determined.

http://www.kcmayor.org/cms/wp-content/u ... 19jmnt.pdf
Item 8 on page 4. There's a legal fact stated that it was going to run on Main from Pershing to the River Market, but the exact details were to be determined. It's not there but I presume it was some variant on the current route for the exhibit.

The reasoning for this is that they couldn't have presented funding and cost without knowing a close approximation on the length of the route. Adding 3/4 of a mile would be almost 50% off from what was built and the funding plan would be different.

The judge couldn't approve ballot language without knowing what that would say. Every transit item on the ballot in recent years has deccribed the route for what would be built to some level of detail.

It doesn't matter if it would stay inside or go outside for my point. To build this line requires a brand new funding source regardless. It's key to answering the original question of when can it be built. And that's when money is found.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby pash » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:31 am

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby DaveKCMO » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:26 am

it's unlikely the riverfront line will use a TDD. no one has proposed "merging" districts.

http://www.kcportauthority.com/index.ph ... -district/

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby DaveKCMO » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:27 am

droopy wrote:I'm not trying to be snarky, so I'm sorry if this comes off that way, but why is a streetcar to the riverfront park appealing? Maybe I'm out of date on my understanding on the plans for the area, only thing that seems to be moving forward is Bar-K. Isn't the mixed use development ideas really really far in the future if at?


google "portland south waterfront".

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby beautyfromashes » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:00 am

It was my perception, perhaps wrong, that the streetcar TDD was bringing in much more money than needed due to increase in sales tax revenue. They had extra money to spend and decided on the extension and extra trains. Perhaps, they were worried about efforts to drop the rate...essentially 'use it or lose it'.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby Pork Chop » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:09 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
droopy wrote:I'm not trying to be snarky, so I'm sorry if this comes off that way, but why is a streetcar to the riverfront park appealing? Maybe I'm out of date on my understanding on the plans for the area, only thing that seems to be moving forward is Bar-K. Isn't the mixed use development ideas really really far in the future if at?


google "portland south waterfront".


Here's what Portland's South Waterfront used to look like


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/inde ... h_wat.html

IMHO, seems a bit familiar...

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby earthling » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:17 am

Would be more ideal to fill in the surface lots in the Loop and Xroads before developing the riverfront methinks. Expanding streetcar line to riverfront will likely attract greenfield developers (logistically easy) to that area before filling up downtown surface lots (logistically harder). Have mixed feelings on the timing of this but eventually would be good, doing it too early is maybe creating another form of sprawl.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby pash » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:56 am

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:25 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:it's unlikely the riverfront line will use a TDD. no one has proposed "merging" districts.

http://www.kcportauthority.com/index.ph ... -district/


Not a merger but a cooperating agreement between the two entities. Cooperative agreements happen all the time with government entities.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby DaveKCMO » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:35 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:it's unlikely the riverfront line will use a TDD. no one has proposed "merging" districts.

http://www.kcportauthority.com/index.ph ... -district/


Not a merger but a cooperating agreement between the two entities. Cooperative agreements happen all the time with government entities.


merge was the only word being used in this thread.

obviously an agreement would be necessary, as there is currently a cooperative agreement between KCMO, the TDD, and KCSA that governs the entire public/private partnership.

it's worth noting that the current TDD has no authority other than collecting revenue and serving as one of three entities approving additional expenditures or adjusting rates. it does not own (city does) or operate (KCSA does) the streetcar and makes no operational or budgetary decisions (KCSA does all of this, with city approving annual KCSA budgets). whatever district is set up for the riverfront (and the southern extension) will likely be in the same position, although the riverfront district will probably take a more active role in development since that is one of the few local revenue sources that can be generated in the near term.

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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Postby pash » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:33 pm

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