Streetcar to the riverfront

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KCPowercat
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by KCPowercat »

from reddit...is this accurate?

"I’ve been told that the owners of Isle of Capri turned down the opportunity to have the rail come to their property. From my understanding the city wanted them to pay for the extension and also pay, at least part, for the massive parking garage that would be required."
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by FangKC »

It's widely-known that property owners pay a tax within the streetcar district. That tax would likely be minimal compared to the additional revenue from customers that a streetcar would bring from downtown hotels alone. An advantage that none of the other local casinos would have. The other factor here is downtown residents who go to the casino and drink would not have to worry about driving home. Other businesses along the streetcar route have reported an increase in business.

Isle of Capri doesn't own their property. The Port of Kansas City does.

I have yet to see any reporting that a parking garage will be built near the casino that has anything to do with the casino. The City owns the casino's main parking lot. The only mention I've seen is that the underused city lot near the casino could be used as a park-n-ride lot.

Survey shows KC streetcar is downtown s ... s booster

https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/k ... 71319.html

Streetcar Extension to Isle of Capri Casino May Be in the Cards
...
Downtown advocates believe connecting the Isle of Capri by streetcar to the new 800-room convention hotel, the Downtown Marriott and Crown Center hotels would create a synergy that would appeal to convention planners and tourists.

“We think it’s a great idea,” said Sean O’Byrne, vice president of the Downtown Council. “It expands the reach of the streetcar and provides much needed parking.

“For the casino, what a wonderful competitive advantage to be connected to every major hotel with free access to their door.”

Gerend said extending the streetcar to the casino also could create a helpful park-and-ride option to Northland commuters. The nearby City Market recently cracked down on drivers parking there for free and jumping on the streetcar to their downtown jobs.

“It has easy access right of the interstate and an under-used parking lot that’s city owned,” he said.
...
The property the casino is located is leased from Port KC, formerly the Port Authority of Kansas City. The agency receives an annual minimum rent of $2.9 million which it splits with the city.
...
https://cityscenekc.com/casino/
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by DaveKCMO »

They're idiots if they turn this down. The worst casino and the only one without a hotel. So close to downtown, yet might as well be in Riverside due to the lack of connectivity.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by FangKC »

The possible drinking gambler business alone would increase their advantage among downtown residents. No drinking and driving risk. Especially once the streetcar reaches the Plaza. Downtown convention business. They could also probably add a small hotel to the property as well.

With a streetcar connection, the casino would be smart to up their entertainment options. If they had a hot nightclub / performance theater with good entertainment, that would attract the non-gambling crowd as well--both residents and hotel guests alike.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by kcjak »

I went to Isle of Capri a few weeks ago for the first time in a couple of years - what a completely depressing shit hole. There's absolutely nothing to draw people there, whether it's amenities, winning percentage or even just plain atmosphere.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by dnweava »

DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:55 pm They're idiots if they turn this down. The worst casino and the only one without a hotel. So close to downtown, yet might as well be in Riverside due to the lack of connectivity.
To be fair, if people use their parking lots as a park and ride and parking becomes full and it becomes a hassle to try and park there, then they could start losing their regular car oriented customers. Especially if their semi truck lot gets converted to parking for downtown commuters, then those truckers with lots of cash are being traded for a few conventioneers who might go there with a few bucks to get out of their hotel room for a few minutes.

While I still want to see it happen, if you look at it from their perspective, I can see why they could have reservations. They have better financial information on how much profit they can get from different types of customers, and I would guess they would make more money off a trucker than a conventioneer.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by flyingember »

I bet they would gain way more customers than they could ever lose by opening up streetcar access to thousands of hotel rooms.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by KCPowercat »

dnweava wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:04 am
DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:55 pm They're idiots if they turn this down. The worst casino and the only one without a hotel. So close to downtown, yet might as well be in Riverside due to the lack of connectivity.
To be fair, if people use their parking lots as a park and ride and parking becomes full and it becomes a hassle to try and park there, then they could start losing their regular car oriented customers. Especially if their semi truck lot gets converted to parking for downtown commuters, then those truckers with lots of cash are being traded for a few conventioneers who might go there with a few bucks to get out of their hotel room for a few minutes.

While I still want to see it happen, if you look at it from their perspective, I can see why they could have reservations. They have better financial information on how much profit they can get from different types of customers, and I would guess they would make more money off a trucker than a conventioneer.
They have a parking garage and nobody says truckers couldn't still park in a new park and ride lot that wouldn't be full when the truckers park there ein evenings.

Ibut hey they are the worst casino for many reasons....and bad decisions seem to be one of them.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by beautyfromashes »

I just don’t understand why this extension was done without it going to the casino. It doesn’t bring any additional destinations, doesn’t provide large park and ride garages like the casino has and adds few residents to the line for commuting...all while making the loop trip longer for others riding the streetcar. Save the extra sales tax money the district has generated. You’ll need it later for some cost or there would have been a better short extension than this one.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by KCPowercat »

The extension is done?
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:33 am I just don’t understand why this extension was done without it going to the casino. It doesn’t bring any additional destinations, doesn’t provide large park and ride garages like the casino has and adds few residents to the line for commuting...all while making the loop trip longer for others riding the streetcar. Save the extra sales tax money the district has generated. You’ll need it later for some cost or there would have been a better short extension than this one.
The streetcar is meant to encourage development and this is supposed to be an amenity to market the Port Authority land to developers. There could be thousands of people in the area in a decade.

To the Casino approximately doubles the length which doubles the cost.

Let's say all trains go there like you say. 3rd/Grand is the *beginning* of the route, this would change the new beginning at the riverfront. You wouldn't get on a NB train from 7th or back south to go back south. It's not that far to get off at 5th or on at 3rd/Grand or Delware instead of taking the whole loop around. Doesn't seem like that many riders to worry about when going to the park for a walk and to the market to shop seems like it would be popular.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by beautyfromashes »

^How is building the streetcar to empty land any better than building a big highway to empty land (suburbs)? Millions of dollars for, hopefully, thousands of people in a sprawled area seems non-urban and non-cost effective. There are already areas with many more people that could benefit from better transportation options. Expand there first.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by grovester »

It is low hanging fruit that didn't need to have an election to move forward.

It's not sprawl and the entities realistically paying for it own all the land.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by KCPowercat »

I don't disagree that housing on the riverfront kind of feels like urban sprawl. We need density where we already have people...not new enclaves that then need density to be successful
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by snigglefritz »

Agreed, but I'm not sure that a riverfront extension prohibits extensions elsewhere, i.e. to areas which are already somewhat developed and needing incentive to get more dense. If there are entities that have the power and money to push this extension, more power to them.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by TheLastGentleman »

I don't think the riverfront development is comparable to suburban sprawl. Unlike most suburban development, the riverfront site isn't parkland or untouched forest. It was readily available downtown land, and I see no reason it shouldn't be built on. It'll help the riverfront park get more use as well. We need more connections to the river. I think it makes sense to send the streetcar out there, since, despite being part of downtown, it's very isolated out there.

While I do agree that it would be nice to get the center of downtown filled in, particularly the loop, that just doesn't seem to be what developers want to do right now. The north loop and the east village are still wastelands, and everywhere else in the loop is pockmarked with surface lots or packed with parking garages, yet we're seeing loads of construction in the crossroads and elsewhere. I see the riverfront as just an example of that.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by beautyfromashes »

snigglefritz wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:44 pm Agreed, but I'm not sure that a riverfront extension prohibits extensions elsewhere, i.e. to areas which are already somewhat developed and needing incentive to get more dense. If there are entities that have the power and money to push this extension, more power to them.
The entities with the power and money is the KCATA. They are fronting the money and putting up $1M, 1/3 of the cost. They could have chosen a different extension. An extension to Brookside would is twice the length but with no bridge/roadwork, owned right of way on Trolley Trail and relatively flat ground. I’m not so sure that it couldn’t have been done for not much more in money.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:14 pm
snigglefritz wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:44 pm Agreed, but I'm not sure that a riverfront extension prohibits extensions elsewhere, i.e. to areas which are already somewhat developed and needing incentive to get more dense. If there are entities that have the power and money to push this extension, more power to them.
The entities with the power and money is the KCATA. They are fronting the money and putting up $1M, 1/3 of the cost. They could have chosen a different extension. An extension to Brookside would is twice the length but with no bridge/roadwork, owned right of way on Trolley Trail and relatively flat ground. I’m not so sure that it couldn’t have been done for not much more in money.

Yeah but then you have to deal with DeJanes and her cabal of NIMBYs. As long as she lives in Brookside, a line there is never going to happen.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by beautyfromashes »

scooterj wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:36 pm Yeah but then you have to deal with DeJanes and her cabal of NIMBYs. As long as she lives in Brookside, a line there is never going to happen.
We’re letting some old lady with a law degree determine the transportation plans for the city?! She’s nothing.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by wahoowa »

"old" people with law degrees determine lots of plans for the city. i think dejanes got hers within a couple years of sly. is the issue that she's a lady?

[taking a moment to acknowledge that if it weren't for the entire rest of my posting corpus this would be one hell of a post for making people think i'm a 60 year old lady lawyer instead of a male child who can mostly operate an internet-enabled device!]
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