Why does metro KC have so many transit entities?

[GRID]

Why does metropolitan Kansas City have so many transit entities that are independent of each other?

While looking at the KCATA Downtown Service Improvement Concept: http://www.kcata.org/maps_schedules/downtown_transit

(Which actually seems to be well thought out and has some really nice proposed improvements for transit in downtown)

I was quickly reminded of how fragmented the organization of the metropolitan transit entities are which leads to fragmented service.

You have the ATA (Area transportation Authority), which is actually a bistate entity. For those that don’t know, Johnson County is actually part of the ATA and has as much representation on the board as Jackson County even though there is almost no ATA service in Johnson County and very little cooperation between JoCo and those outside the county overall. Makes total sense right?

So anyway, Kansas City has:

ATA (aka Metro) Primary transit for central city of KCMO and most MO side suburbs includes Metro and MAX.
IndeBus (fixed routes serving suburban Independence, MO)
The JO (fixed route serving suburban Johnson County, KS)
Unified Government Transit (fixed routes serving KCK)
Kansas City Streetcar Authority (entity running the KCMO streetcars, not part of the ATA)
If the Jackson County commuter rail ever gets off the ground, I’m sure that will yet another agency separate from the ATA.
And what little commuter bus service the MO suburbs (liberty, blue springs etc) have to be funded annually by those cities. They don't have any dedicated funding.


Kansas City is not Chicago or DC. For a metro the size of KC, all of these transit agencies should be under the same umbrella, preferably the Kansas City “AREA” Transpiration Authority which was one of the rare occasions when the states of MO and KS worked together to create a bi-state organization so there would be no need to for legislators of the states of KS and MO (as well as Congress) to attempt to create such an agency, which would probably be impossible today.

Metro buses, streetcars, commuter express buses and future commuter rail as well as local suburban service should all be under one system like you see in places like Denver, Seattle, and Minneapolis.

KCMO can try to improve urban core transit and has made great strides in doing that over the past decade. But till the entire region has a single transit system that is property funded (both locally and by both states), I just don’t see Kansas City ever really closing the gap much making the metro more transit friendly.

I have always thought that this should be step one with regards to regional cooperation for metropolitan KC. If KC can’t even work together on transit, everything else is a lost cause and that has been pretty much proven over the past few decades.

I wonder what it would take and if it would even be possible for the metropolitan area to merge all these separate agencies back into the ATA and then properly fund it with a regional sales tax that would cancel out any existing transit sales taxes.

You could have streetcars in KCMO and KCK and take a streetcar from Union Station to a redeveloped Downtown KCK via the Lewis and Clark transitway/greenway (that shouldn't even be a highway, but that's another topic). You could take a Metro Bus from Cerner’s Bannister complex to Lenexa or from Lee’s Summit to Overland Park. Light rail could be funded and run from Olathe to Blue Springs via Union Station on one seamless line which would allow people in JoCo to take a train to Royals and Chiefs games or a person in Independence to get to a job in Merriam.

Commuter rail could serve areas not served by light rail in lower density longer haul corridors such as KCI, Western WyCo, Lee’s Summit and Cass County.

Commuter buses and BRT lines could crisscross the area and cross the state line.

And you would go to ONE website and have ONE transit pass for the entire system.

Is this even possible. Can this be done today when metro KC is one of the most split up metropolitan areas with some of the fiercest competition within its own metro in the country? Could a grassroots effort to make such a thing happen be possible?

It sure would go a long way in helping the KC metropolitan area realize they have a vested interest in working together if the metro had ONE comprehensive transit system that the entire metro could use and be proud of.

[smh]

GRID, this is in the works right now. I think it will be debuting sooner than later.

[GRID]

GRID, this is in the works right now. I think it will be debuting sooner than later.

Really? How so? I can see maybe the different agencies coming up with a smart card that works on all the systems, but I don't see the JO ditching their cheap bus drivers and using ATA union labor or the ATA dropping the union so they can merge.

It’s completely silly that a METRO bus doesn’t go down Metcalf every 15 minutes and a line like that wouldn’t run to Downtown KCMO or that there is very little east/west transit across state line along corridors like 63rd street.

[flyingember]

GRID, this is in the works right now. I think it will be debuting sooner than later.

Really? How so? I can see maybe the different agencies coming up with a smart card that works on all the systems, but I don't see the JO ditching their cheap bus drivers and using ATA union labor or the ATA dropping the union so they can merge.

It’s completely silly that a METRO bus doesn’t go down Metcalf every 15 minutes and a line like that wouldn’t run to Downtown KCMO or that there is very little east/west transit across state line along corridors like 63rd street.

no one cares if they're different entities as long as the experience is possible to get to a destination. it's all money problems

JoCo doesn't fund anything except the Jo, and poorly at that, so you end up with stupid situations like you describe.

there's a ton of people that would ride a commuter bus from Liberty to College Blvd under the Jo name. it would be strategic for Johnson County to do this. and they don't.

a common payment system starts to put pressure on the Jo. when it doesn't cost any more to get into johnson county, the more cases where it's Johnson County holding things up with access to jobs. and people will notice this.

[mean]

It’s completely silly that a METRO bus doesn’t go down Metcalf every 15 minutes and a line like that wouldn’t run to Downtown KCMO or that there is very little east/west transit across state line along corridors like 63rd street.

Is there really appreciable demand for sending a bunch of buses down a street where visiting most of the destinations on it will involve crossing 6-10 lanes of traffic and/or wading through half a mile of parking lots? It'd be nice to have, but I can't imagine there'd be enough ridership to justify that kind of frequency.

[flyingember]

It’s completely silly that a METRO bus doesn’t go down Metcalf every 15 minutes and a line like that wouldn’t run to Downtown KCMO or that there is very little east/west transit across state line along corridors like 63rd street.

Is there really appreciable demand for sending a bunch of buses down a street where visiting most of the destinations on it will involve crossing 6-10 lanes of traffic and/or wading through half a mile of parking lots? It'd be nice to have, but I can't imagine there'd be enough ridership to justify that kind of frequency.

absolutely.

1. Metcalf is on the MARC long-range transit improvement plan

2. a parking lot is roughly the same distance as the 2-3 blocks someone will walk to the streetcar. you can't legitimately promote one as walkable and say the other isn't. especially since that's such a good example to promote streetcar use "it's as far as from the parking lot to the far corner of a walmart"

3. South of 31st Main is a consistent 6 lanes wide. Most of Metcalf until about 90th is 4-lanes wide. they're very similar in style that way.

4. there's a notable office buildings along Metcalf that are as close and quicker to get to from to the Plaza as downtown is. that would provide job flexibility and still live car free (at Shawnee Mission Parkway)

5. there's a huge number of homes and retail as well. the bus could serve kids getting to after school jobs

[DaveKCMO]

KCATA is repositioning itself to be that single entity. it took decades to fragment, so it may take awhile to go back to a single agency. the regional transit coordinating council is leading the charge, and all agencies and funding partners are represented there (a first).

[mean]

1. Metcalf is on the MARC long-range transit improvement plan

I think you'll have to improve Metcalf a lot before any significant number of people are willing to take transit on it.

2. a parking lot is roughly the same distance as the 2-3 blocks someone will walk to the streetcar. you can't legitimately promote one as walkable and say the other isn't.

Of course I can. Walkability isn't solely defined by the distance one must walk to get to Destination A from Transit Stop X. Much more important factors are things like the density of destinations within a 5-10 minute walk of Transit Stop X, and whether the environment that 5-10 minute walk occurs in is, well, walkable. Parking lots are, at best, of questionable walkability. We're talking about vehicle storage pads within which drivers routinely ignore all painted lines and rational thought, blasting about at seemingly arbitrary angles and unsafe speeds. Vehicle storage pads within which the overwhelming majority of people will not even walk from one strip mall storefront to their next destination a few shops down, they walk back to their cars and drive! To ask people who have cars to forgo driving and take the bus by giving them high frequency transit options is to waste a mountain of money and piss everyone off. People are reluctant enough to have "their" money spent on transit where it makes sense and gets used regularly; if you want to permanently sour JoCo on the idea of transit, spend a ton of money to run empty buses up and down Metcalf all day.

3. South of 31st Main is a consistent 6 lanes wide. Most of Metcalf until about 90th is 4-lanes wide. they're very similar in style that way.

Yes, Main between 31st and 47th is a shame.

4. there's a notable office buildings along Metcalf that are as close and quicker to get to from to the Plaza as downtown is. that would provide job flexibility and still live car free (at Shawnee Mission Parkway)

This is pretty questionable, as most of the office buildings along the Metcalf corridor seem to me to be around the 435/College area, but regardless, if you really want to piss people off, create solid transit connections from the inner city to these jobs, wherever they are. You might think race / class isn't a factor, and certainly nobody with any sense would come out and say it, but the, "We don't want to give 'criminals' from the inner city easy access to our homes and businesses," folks will be falling all over themselves with the mealy-mouthed excuses. I've heard variations on this theme so many times over the last 20-odd years that unless there's been a dramatic sea change in the worldview of the demographic who chooses to live out there (or enough of the cantankerous old farts have died off) I'm pretty sure we're going to hear it again.

5. there's a huge number of homes and retail as well. the bus could serve kids getting to after school jobs

It could, I'm just skeptical that it will anytime soon.

[flyingember]

This is pretty questionable, as most of the office buildings along the Metcalf corridor seem to me to be around the 435/College area

there's ~20 office buildings right at Metcalf and Shawnee Mission Parkway
they're not all large but that's several thousand jobs worth of space among them

and you have to consider that a bus line to there can be an arm of a line into the Plaza and downtown for the opposite route. Mission and Roeland Park is a very diverse community and as an old suburb, is slightly denser than areas to the south

I see this as a rail line someday, stop at this major turn and there's already a bike lane that can feed a transit hub. improved bus service is a good first step towards that

[flyingember]

Much more important factors are things like the density of destinations within a 5-10 minute walk of Transit Stop X, and whether the environment that 5-10 minute walk occurs in is, well, walkable.

exactly.

sure, a grocery store right along the street would be more walkable, but there's a reason Vivion and N. Oak is one of the busiest bus stops on that line and it requires people to walk across the parking lot to the grocery store

that grocery store is a pharmacy, bank, bill pay station, etc all at the same time. next door is a goodwill shop. next to it, a big lots. so it's density of destinations are improved even though it has a huge lot.

the hyvee that's the next major street up has a Gordman's, cell phone store (I think), haircut place, shoes and inside the store bank with Sunday hours, movies, mail, pharmacy, meals, bill pay, etc. also very dense in different services.

Metcalf has areas along it that are just as good as those two examples. there's others that are as pitiful as parts of downtown

you can't assume density means there's lots of buildings. because one building by itself can be dense in destinations. that's the definition of mixed use, let's call them mixed service businesses.

[mean]

I never imagined anyone on this forum would defend Wal-Mart analogs full of Subways and banks and bill-pay stations connected via transit to residential areas as "urban density". Good job. You've baffled me. I'll have to think on this one, and perhaps shoot myself in the face.

[DaveKCMO]

I never imagined anyone on this forum would defend Wal-Mart analogs full of Subways and banks and bill-pay stations connected via transit to residential areas as "urban density". Good job. You've baffled me. I'll have to think on this one, and perhaps shoot myself in the face.

.

[Pork Chop]

Walkability isn't solely defined by the distance one must walk to get to Destination A from Transit Stop X. Much more important factors are things like the density of destinations within a 5-10 minute walk of Transit Stop X, and whether the environment that 5-10 minute walk occurs in is, well, walkable. Parking lots are, at best, of questionable walkability. We're talking about vehicle storage pads within which drivers routinely ignore all painted lines and rational thought, blasting about at seemingly arbitrary angles and unsafe speeds. Vehicle storage pads within which the overwhelming majority of people will not even walk from one strip mall storefront to their next destination a few shops down, they walk back to their cars and drive! To ask people who have cars to forgo driving and take the bus by giving them high frequency transit options is to waste a mountain of money and piss everyone off. People are reluctant enough to have "their" money spent on transit where it makes sense and gets used regularly; if you want to permanently sour JoCo on the idea of transit, spend a ton of money to run empty buses up and down Metcalf all day.

Awesome points

[flyingember]

I never imagined anyone on this forum would defend Wal-Mart analogs full of Subways and banks and bill-pay stations connected via transit to residential areas as "urban density". Good job. You've baffled me. I'll have to think on this one, and perhaps shoot myself in the face.

there's tons of shopping centers are more dense in retail services than parts of downtown are. you can do more types of basic shopping and services at a single bus stop at Vivion and N. Oak with less walking than you can at 14th and Main.

do you see my point now?

density in general doesn't mean density of need. it's not like this is an unknown issue downtown has.

[pash]

.

[GRID]

You don't have to have 8000 people psm to have decent transit. There is almost no transit in KC outside of the urban core and the transit that does exist isn't connected well to the urban core so that it can at least serve as transit routes to get people to walkable areas and connect the dots.

Maybe if Metcalf had basic and regular frequent transit to the plaza and downtown, then when they redevelop Metcalf South, it could actually be a true mixed use project (even though its surrounded by auto focused sprawl.). Instead, I'm sure it will be more retail boxes and parking lots while the few mixed use developments metro KC does have (that are still not really mixed use) are all in the middle of nowhere, isolated and independent. (Lenexa Town Center, Prairie Fire, Zona Rosa etc).

I think the lack of decent regional transit is only encouraging sprawl rather than denser infill redevelopment.

If there was a BRT or Streetcar going down SMP, then maybe the Gateway project in Mission wouldn't be the disaster it's turned into. Look at Denver or Minneapolis or San Diego or Seattle and you will see new very urban development replacing what was once Metcalf type sprawl due to transit and the ability to go from one high dense area to another even if there is still sprawl between them.

If you build light rail down I-35 in JoCo you would eventually get high density development around many of the stations. Sometimes the transit has to come first.

Imagine if Light rail were built along side the BNSF tracks back in the 90's. Would Lenexa still be building thier "town center" in the middle of nowhere or would they be trying to build something like that at 95th and Santa Fe instead? It's rather ironic that the iconic structure being built at the walkable and urban Lenexa Town Center is a gigantic traffic signal truss.

[flyingember]

Instead, I'm sure it will be more retail boxes and parking lots while the few mixed use developments metro KC does have (that are still not really mixed use) are all in the middle of nowhere, isolated and independent. (Lenexa Town Center, Prairie Fire, Zona Rosa etc).

Metcalf South is planned to be a normal big box shopping center

Zona Rosa actually is true mixed use, just with a lot of parking lots. A ton of the retail spaces have offices or apartments above them.

[GRID]

Instead, I'm sure it will be more retail boxes and parking lots while the few mixed use developments metro KC does have (that are still not really mixed use) are all in the middle of nowhere, isolated and independent. (Lenexa Town Center, Prairie Fire, Zona Rosa etc).

Metcalf South is planned to be a normal big box shopping center

Zona Rosa actually is true mixed use, just with a lot of parking lots. A ton of the retail spaces have offices or apartments above them.

Yes, but it has very few apartments and office space for the size of the retail portion. If there were some sort of transit line along I-29 with a stop at Zona Rosa (BRT, Rail whatever) then I would imagine there would be a much larger portion of the project (and others around it) dedicated to high density hotel, office and residential development. Zona Rosa is nice and is walkable to drive to and shop, but it's mostly just a walkable retail area that has zero connectivity to the surrounding area via transit, trails or other pedestrian activity.

So it's mixed use that it has office and residential on top of some of the retail, but it's still very much just a mall without a roof surrounded by parking. With better regional transit, that could have developed different. There is a transit center across the interstate, but I'm not sure you could put a transit center is a worse location.

[flyingember]

If there were some sort of transit line along I-29 with a stop at Zona Rosa (BRT, Rail whatever) then I would imagine there would be a much larger portion of the project (and others around it) dedicated to high density hotel, office and residential development. Zona Rosa is nice and is walkable to drive to and shop, but it's mostly just a walkable retail area that has zero connectivity to the surrounding area via transit, trails or other pedestrian activity.

Have you ever been to Zona Rosa?

http://www.kcata.org/documents/routes/maps/230mwk.gif
which connects to
http://www.kcata.org/documents/routes/maps/129mwk.gif

and as far as trails go I assume you're ignoring the two roads with bike lanes that go on two sides of the development and the other trails in place and planned for construction
http://www.linecreekloudmouth.com/blog/ ... ether.html

[aknowledgeableperson]

Just so everyone is clear I have not morphed into flyingember.

Guess it is a generational thing but a walk of 300 yards is the same whether it is through a parking lot or down city blocks.