Streetcar Opposition

Transportation topics in KC
JBmidtown
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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby JBmidtown » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:08 pm

taxi wrote:I don't like sex and drugs
I don't like water bugs
I don't care about poverty
All I care about is me
Well I'm against it


=D>

mean
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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby mean » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:11 pm

Holy shit, you can just about sing that to the tune of Suburban Home. And if you go on the chorus it actually works pretty well in context. Ha!

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby Highlander » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:03 am

Did that ridiculous petition about needing a city wide vote to involve the city in streetcar planning get voted on today?? Or is that the next election?

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby flyingember » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:17 am

Highlander wrote:Did that ridiculous petition about needing a city wide vote to involve the city in streetcar planning get voted on today?? Or is that the next election?

August

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby missingkc » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:15 am

Who do proponents of projects cede the use of petition for referendum to the opposition? Couldn't you use a petition to seek a referendum requiring the city to get involved?

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby flyingember » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:12 am

missingkc wrote:Who do proponents of projects cede the use of petition for referendum to the opposition? Couldn't you use a petition to seek a referendum requiring the city to get involved?


You don't waste time chasing something that's flawed. The anti-streetcar petition group made a huge two word error that will easily mean the city can't implement it even if it wanted to. There's lawsuits over Oxford commas vs not using Oxford commas, this one is a home run by comparison. They were trying to exclude the city also working on commuter rail running on freight lines and introduced the clear opening to throw the ordinance out.

Ordinance 170042

As used in this Ordinance, “Fixed Rail Transit System” is a means of conveyance of passengers and goods, by way of vehicles running on rails.


They used the worst possible word. Goods is the term to describe literally anything that can be physically moved from one place to another. So this definition applies to BNSF, KCS, etc.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/a ... goods.html

Couple that with the next definition in the ordinance

As used in this Ordinance, “extension of” means an enlargement in scope or operation of the "existing fixed rail transit system”.


This is overly broad, since we know the ordinance applies to supporting freight rail from the earlier definition

Operations would include the connection at the state line and there's customs in the KC area for freight movement. I'm sure there's some federal court case, law or regulation that says cities must do all work needed to support any railroads that enter KC because of this alone.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby chingon » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:22 am

missingkc wrote:Who do proponents of projects cede the use of petition for referendum to the opposition? Couldn't you use a petition to seek a referendum requiring the city to get involved?


Seems likely to alienate cautious or begrudging allies, which would describe a significant portion of the council, to say nothing of those who outright or privately oppose. Also seems likely to fail, because most voters in KC do not support the streetcar, much less an extension and that's just going to be that way for a while.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby DaveKCMO » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:45 pm

chingon wrote:Also seems likely to fail, because most voters in KC do not support the streetcar, much less an extension and that's just going to be that way for a while.


wait until you see the next round of citizen satisfaction numbers. while not a poll of likely voters, it's moving up every quarter.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby chingon » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:33 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
chingon wrote:Also seems likely to fail, because most voters in KC do not support the streetcar, much less an extension and that's just going to be that way for a while.


wait until you see the next round of citizen satisfaction numbers. while not a poll of likely voters, it's moving up every quarter.


Glad to hear it, and also unsurprised. I know that there's a strong correlation with having used the streetcar and liking it as an amenity. I think it takes a little bit for that to trickle into "support" at the ballot box. Which is why I wrote "for a while". I'd bet good money that a generation from now, there will be a pretty widespread narrative on the East Side and in the Northland that "the city" won't invest in streetcars and light rail infrastructure in their neighborhoods because it only cares about the corridor.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby mean » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:55 am

I'll be here to remind my neighbors that they rejected expansion and wag my finger at them.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby flyingember » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:26 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
chingon wrote:Also seems likely to fail, because most voters in KC do not support the streetcar, much less an extension and that's just going to be that way for a while.


wait until you see the next round of citizen satisfaction numbers. while not a poll of likely voters, it's moving up every quarter.


I would love to see this data split up by zip code. I expect people in midtown support to go up but is there a more interest in areas like 64118 or 64116?

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby chingon » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:48 pm

mean wrote:I'll be here to remind my neighbors that they rejected expansion and wag my finger at them.


Point taken. I'm still butt-hurt tho.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby mean » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:56 pm

Oh, me too. I'd much rather be being currently or shortly inconvenienced by track-laying activity along Independence Avenue than eventually being irritated by people who voted not to have a train complaining that they don't have a train.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby hartliss » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:30 pm

http://www.besmartkc.com/

Group is gearing up to help people vote (vote no of course). I added my commentary to their home page below, making sure I have my facts straight.

We hope you will join us in saying NO to:

HIGHER PROPERTY TAXES - true, if you live in TDD, right?
HIGHER SALES TAXES - is this accurate?
HIGHER RENTS - potentially due to landlords passing on the prop tax increase, right?
TAXING CHURCHES AND NON-PROFITS - I understand this to be true

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby swid » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:55 pm

1. yes, but only if you don't live in the current TDD
2. same as item 1
3. either that or (more likely) that residences near the streetcar line will become more attractive to live in; w/o a corresponding increase in housing supply, rents will go up
4. correct, which is why it's technically a special assessment, and not a property tax

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby hartliss » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:07 pm

swid wrote:1. yes, but only if you don't live in the current TDD
2. same as item 1
3. either that or (more likely) that residences near the streetcar line will become more attractive to live in; w/o a corresponding increase in housing supply, rents will go up
4. correct, which is why it's technically a special assessment, and not a property tax


Why would sales tax increase? I thought it was property only?

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby WoodDraw » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:12 pm

The downtown KC Streetcar operating budget is comprised mostly of funds collected within the TDD. Those revenues include:
A sales tax not to exceed 1 percent on sales within the TDD boundary
A special assessment on real estate within the TDD boundary, with maximum annual rates as follows:
48¢ for each $100 of assessed value for commercial property ($1,536 for each $1 million of market value)
70¢ for each $100 of assessed value for residential property ($266 for each $200,000 of market value)
$1.04 for each $100 of assessed value for property owned by the City (which would mean a total annual City payment of about $810,000)
40¢ for each $100 of assessed value for real property exempt from property tax, such as religious, educational, charitable, etc. property, but only on market value more than $300,000 and less than $50 Million.
A supplemental special assessment on surface pay parking lots within the TDD boundary (not garages and not free parking lots). The maximum rate for the supplemental special assessment on surface pay parking lots will be $54.75 per space per year

hartliss
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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby hartliss » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:39 pm

WoodDraw wrote:
The downtown KC Streetcar operating budget is comprised mostly of funds collected within the TDD. Those revenues include:
A sales tax not to exceed 1 percent on sales within the TDD boundary
A special assessment on real estate within the TDD boundary, with maximum annual rates as follows:
48¢ for each $100 of assessed value for commercial property ($1,536 for each $1 million of market value)
70¢ for each $100 of assessed value for residential property ($266 for each $200,000 of market value)
$1.04 for each $100 of assessed value for property owned by the City (which would mean a total annual City payment of about $810,000)
40¢ for each $100 of assessed value for real property exempt from property tax, such as religious, educational, charitable, etc. property, but only on market value more than $300,000 and less than $50 Million.
A supplemental special assessment on surface pay parking lots within the TDD boundary (not garages and not free parking lots). The maximum rate for the supplemental special assessment on surface pay parking lots will be $54.75 per space per year


Thanks

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby WoodDraw » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:49 pm

hartliss wrote:
WoodDraw wrote:
The downtown KC Streetcar operating budget is comprised mostly of funds collected within the TDD. Those revenues include:
A sales tax not to exceed 1 percent on sales within the TDD boundary
A special assessment on real estate within the TDD boundary, with maximum annual rates as follows:
48¢ for each $100 of assessed value for commercial property ($1,536 for each $1 million of market value)
70¢ for each $100 of assessed value for residential property ($266 for each $200,000 of market value)
$1.04 for each $100 of assessed value for property owned by the City (which would mean a total annual City payment of about $810,000)
40¢ for each $100 of assessed value for real property exempt from property tax, such as religious, educational, charitable, etc. property, but only on market value more than $300,000 and less than $50 Million.
A supplemental special assessment on surface pay parking lots within the TDD boundary (not garages and not free parking lots). The maximum rate for the supplemental special assessment on surface pay parking lots will be $54.75 per space per year


Thanks


Just ftr, that's for the current tdd. I can't speak to the funding of the new one.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby DaveKCMO » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:50 pm

The new TDD carries forward the exact same revenue sources.


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