Streetcar Opposition

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Streetcar Opposition

Postby KCPowercat » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:18 pm

Without a better place to vent about these people, I choose this venue....these people are WEIRD. Why? Examples:

- One can find at least 10 different twitter accounts with the same 8 followers ranting full of expletives and insanity.
- Their facebook page has no idea which direction to go....we hate everything...wait we only hate trolley trail stuff...wait we LOVE buses....wait, we've never ridden a bus
- Their new billboards (of which they can't take pictures of themselves and can only point to TKC) are fragments of real statements.

It seems like if anybody was on the fence and read these maniacs, it would easily push them pro-streetcar. I applaud them....keep it up kids with your St. Louis money!!!! =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby longviewmo » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:36 pm

Someone was on Reddit today claiming that the starter line will cost $500M.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby chingon » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:01 am

Better take them seriously. Their spokespeople are clearly out of touch (with reality) and thats great, but their backers are pretty experienced at this game.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby grovester » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:37 am

Absolutely. There is enough of a natural tendency against taxes/govt endeavors/urbanity that it wouldn't take much of a screw up to tip the scales. They're already fishing, ie Rivermarket fire, canvassing, etc.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby loftguy » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:51 am

There is no room for complacency on this issue.

I'm really worried, because of the number of people who are otherwise sane and rational humans, that flip into bundles of twisted hate when the streetcar subject is broached.

The streetcar issue has for many become the vehicle that represents their sum of fears and frustration. They may not know what they are mad about, but they're sure the f*ck mad.

Study the Cinncinnatti streetcar debacle that has occurred over the past year to see what happens if you stop working for positive change and allow the angry mob to take control.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby flyingember » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:00 am

chingon wrote:Better take them seriously. Their spokespeople are clearly out of touch (with reality) and thats great, but their backers are pretty experienced at this game.


I'm still convinced that people inside the TDD are smart enough to compare a plan actually going to the ballot that is sending most of the money to the eastside versus some hypothetical plan from people that didn't care earlier this year.

I don't think they have the right population to play their game.

We know that for this project we're obviously talking about voters hat have many legitimate reasons to be suspicious of promises from the city and the city has way more legitimacy than some out of touch rich people. By promoting busses they're running a game that says busses are good enough for the inner city while the county works on commuter rail to serve white suburbs, and that doing this is what you should want. You don't make your case by appearing out of touch to that degree. I bet that within days people will be making fun of the billboard on I-70 telling people with nice cars to not vote for a streetcar extension.

This election will follow the 2008 election in style. A 55-60% yes vote in the precincts along the line will result in a 51-52% yes inside the TDD with each election.

It's the classic election where giving something to everyone will pay off. If the city would come in and vote for a resolution that should the TDD pass the city will start to look for money to do engineering on Troost for a rail conversion that the yes vote would be 5% higher along that street.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby DaveKCMO » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:09 am

why is sherry dejanes involved this time? she's not in the TDD and has never been an active opponent before.

here's why: her residence is built partially ON the country club right-of-way -- a piece of private property owned entirely by the KCATA -- which is an illegal encroachment. had the city never proposed to run streetcar down the CCROW, i doubt we'd even know she existed.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby smh » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:27 am

DaveKCMO wrote:why is sherry dejanes involved this time? she's not in the TDD and has never been an active opponent before.

here's why: her residence is built partially ON the country club right-of-way -- a piece of private property owned entirely by the KCATA -- which is an illegal encroachment. had the city never proposed to run streetcar down the CCROW, i doubt we'd even know she existed.


This.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby KCPowercat » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:38 am

Nowhere was it stated to be complacent or not take them seriously.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby LenexatoKCMO » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:55 pm

Back at the spring Valentine Neighborhood meeting we had the streetcar folks in to talk about what was going on. We had several representatives of the brookside tea crowd show up to heckle them with "facts" about the tax and some good old fashioned FUD. They were so out of place with the normal tone that I can't imagine it left a very good impression.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby chingon » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:06 pm

KCPowercat wrote:Nowhere was it stated to be complacent or not take them seriously.



I was responding to the "if anyone was on the fence, these people will puch them into the pro camp" idea.

I don't think that's true. The opposition is shotgunning pretty carefully crafty and notoriously sticky messages. Their strategy is not to "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks", its to throw shit at persuadable voters and let each thing stick to a different segment.

They aren't looking for one magic bullet to take this down, they are releasing a carefully timed series of messages designed to pick at slightly different base each time.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby DaveKCMO » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:38 am

they're very proud of their two billboards. money well spent! :roll:

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby KCPowercat » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:45 pm

chingon wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:Nowhere was it stated to be complacent or not take them seriously.



I was responding to the "if anyone was on the fence, these people will puch them into the pro camp" idea.

I don't think that's true. The opposition is shotgunning pretty carefully crafty and notoriously sticky messages. Their strategy is not to "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks", its to throw shit at persuadable voters and let each thing stick to a different segment.

They aren't looking for one magic bullet to take this down, they are releasing a carefully timed series of messages designed to pick at slightly different base each time.


totally disagree with "carefully timed"...but yes, they are subscribing to a popular and effective "anti" message...throw a lot of different stuff out there and one of those is going to ring home with different voters. This isn't unlike any other anti campaign.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby grovester » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:39 pm

The critical issue being, if they do find something to stick, do they have the funds to capitalize? I'd say they do. The wacky folks are making the noise, but Nutter and Sinquefield are waiting in the wings.

I imagine if the first vote passes, but marginally, the push will be about "rigged" elections, low turnout, etc.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby chingon » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:36 am

grovester wrote:The critical issue being, if they do find something to stick, do they have the funds to capitalize? .


They do.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby KCPowercat » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:58 pm

chingon wrote:
grovester wrote:The critical issue being, if they do find something to stick, do they have the funds to capitalize? .


They do.


Can you expand on this a little bit? Who exactly are you referring?

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby Eon Blue » Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:49 pm

Nutter, Sinquefield, etc.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby taxi » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:39 pm

Not sure who they are, exactly, but the group that funded the lawsuit certainly have dough. And I don't mean the pretty faces of STRETCH and Sue, but the ones in the shadows.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby DaveKCMO » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:45 pm

i have yet to hear any opposing arguments in this election that i didn't hear in november 2008, yet that question passed in the area that is now the phase 2 TDD.

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Re: Streetcar Opposition

Postby chingon » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:16 pm

KCPowercat wrote:
chingon wrote:
grovester wrote:The critical issue being, if they do find something to stick, do they have the funds to capitalize? .


They do.


Can you expand on this a little bit? Who exactly are you referring?


The same people who have given thus far can give lots more.

In a bit of a surprising turn (to me, as an outside observer) is the news that the Heavy Constructors Association, which has worked against all previous fixed rail projects, is apparently going to support the TDD and donate to the campaign.


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