Streetcar Opposition

[DaveKCMO]

as a reminder, here is the november 2006 (chastain plan) and november 2008 (official plan) breakdown by ward:

2006


2008

[KCPowercat]

This is a bummer. Sounds like you guys are not getting a good vibe from the locals outside pro urban development circles like this. Reminds me a lot of the city backed light rail plan that went down in flames. It had plenty of downtown support and most pro transit people felt good about it, but couldn't get the support of the city outside of the loop or crossroads area. I hope people come around and vote yes.

I don't think this is necessarily true.

[DaveKCMO]

it's not.

[Armorek]

If anyone hasn't had a chance to check out elbr's (a very vocal part of the streetcar opposition on reddit and twitter) post on reddit for his Alternative Transit Proposal, please do. This is his proposal to fix KC transportation issues.

http://www.reddit.com/r/kansascity/comm ... _proposal/

flyember does a good job of deconstructing his points but I'm interested in what others here have to say about it.

[chaglang]

Elbr is Bryan Stalder.

Ember says most of what I'd say. Some of it's interesting, some of it's laughable, none of it has a budget or analysis attached. It's basically the KC transit version of the GOP health care plan.

[KCPowercat]

Does the group that claims responsibility for killing the TDD have a responsibility to offer up a transit plan? Really that question goes for any "anti" group

[flyingember]

Does the group that claims responsibility for killing the TDD have a responsibility to offer up a transit plan? Really that question goes for any "anti" group

Nope

[pash]

.

[KCPowercat]

Does the group that claims responsibility for killing the TDD have a responsibility to offer up a transit plan? Really that question goes for any "anti" group

Nope

I ask not having a strong opinion....and by responsibility I obviously mean a social neighborhly responsibility.

[flyingember]

Does the group that claims responsibility for killing the TDD have a responsibility to offer up a transit plan? Really that question goes for any "anti" group

Nope

I ask not having a strong opinion....and by responsibility I obviously mean a social neighborhly responsibility.

I said nope because you can be against something and think nothing should be done instead.

[kcjak]

The anti folks likely never take transit and therefore don't think anyone should have to pay for something they don't use.

[flyingember]

The anti folks likely never take transit and therefore don't think anyone should have to pay for something they don't use.

to be fair, the east side agreed with them

the vote result was based on distance from the expansion lines after all

[KCPowercat]

I ask not having a strong opinion....and by responsibility I obviously mean a social neighborhly responsibility.

I said nope because you can be against something and think nothing should be done instead.

Okay if you name yourself "supporters of modern affordable transit", now do you have a responsibility?

[flyingember]

I ask not having a strong opinion....and by responsibility I obviously mean a social neighborhly responsibility.

I said nope because you can be against something and think nothing should be done instead.

Okay if you name yourself "supporters of modern affordable transit", now do you have a responsibility?

I'd argue few people are legitimately saying what we're doing now works. people for/against one plan or another largely want changes big enough to require some sort of constructive plan to show how their idea would work

but that it is possible to be for modern affordable transit and think that what is being done right now works and nothing needs to change

[chaglang]

I ask not having a strong opinion....and by responsibility I obviously mean a social neighborhly responsibility.

I said nope because you can be against something and think nothing should be done instead.

Okay if you name yourself "supporters of modern affordable transit", now do you have a responsibility?

Yes. But if you call yourself "affordable modern transit", that could mean anything, including the status quo.

[kboish]

walking is affordable

[DaveKCMO]

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/kc ... 64354.html

from the previous city attorney, based on review of dejanes' last attempt to restrict our rights under the missouri statutes:

I also do not believe the ordinance will be effective in accomplishing your apparent goal of
stopping all streetcar discussion without an election. For example, the City cannot control the
actions of a transportation development district, which is a separate political subdivision.

For example, the current attempt to expand the streetcar system is brought by 50 people who seek a
new transportation development district. The City cannot stop that process.

Moreover, the Missouri statutes explicitly allow cities to enter into cooperative agreements with
other political subdivisions to build public improvements. Attempts to remove that power
granted by the State are inconsistent with the authority of the State,
and our City Charter. Our ordinances must be consistent with the statutes.

[flyingember]

The background of the point made by the city lawyer is a TDD is a subdivision of the state. It's not a separate political subdivision inside the city that has special powers. This point is very important and is easily lost. Someone might think the streetcar TDD is controlled by the city.

The example to give is a school district and the vote back when part of the KCSB moved to the Independence district. No city law could control that process because a school district isn't formed by the city or even the county. Like a TDD, a school district can cross all political boundaries except the state line.

[beautyfromashes]

I have a bad feeling that streetcar is going to get shutdown before the extension happens. I don't understand why the council wanted to delay the election because of the bond issue. The bond isn't even going to pass.

[kboish]

The background of the point made by the city lawyer is a TDD is a subdivision of the state. It's not a separate political subdivision inside the city that has special powers. This point is very important and is easily lost. Someone might think the streetcar TDD is controlled by the city.

The example to give is a school district and the vote back when part of the KCSB moved to the Independence district. No city law could control that process because a school district isn't formed by the city or even the county. Like a TDD, a school district can cross all political boundaries except the state line.

This is not really a fair comparison for our current TDD because of the way it was formed. While it is technically a separate political subdivision, the city (and really, the mayor) control its board makeup. Its board consists of- the mayor, some one the mayor appoints, someone from the Port Authority (who, btw is appointed by the mayor) and someone the Port Authority appoints for a total of 4 board members. This governance reflects the interest of the entities that formed the district...the city and the port authority. Additionally, the city actually owns all of the physical assets and right of ways related to the streetcar, not the TDD and not KCSA.

In the case of the existing TDD, if you got an transit-unfriendly Mayor or council majority, you could potentially have some meddling or imposed changes and there isn't much the TDD constituents could do about it (though it would be pretty idiotic to mess with because there is no other legal use for those funds so...its unlikely something like that would happen. plus, there are some legal obligations and what not...)

In comparison, the city/mayor have pretty much zero influence over the school district and do not own any of its assets.

If the new TDD is formed, however, the governance structure will change and more closely resemble something like an independent political subdivision (eg. school district). This is b/c the new TDD is being formed via citizen petition and the governance of the district will have to reflect their interests....which means all of the new TDD board members will be elected by the TDD constituents themselves- no appointments.