Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by smh »

scooterj wrote:
KCtonic wrote:Anyone thought of using a gondola as a connection from one streetcar at the RM to a streetcar in NKC?


Ooooh even better, the streetcar is the gondola. At 2nd street it is pulled up off the track and carried in the air, then is gently dropped back down on the track at 10th ave. ;)

(Because I laugh now, by 10 years from now someone somewhere will have done this and it will work great.)

I don't know exactly why, but your post made me think of (the former) Buzzsaw Falls at Silver Dollar City. The world first and last water ride/rollercoaster combo.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by smh »

scooterj wrote:
KCtonic wrote:Anyone thought of using a gondola as a connection from one streetcar at the RM to a streetcar in NKC?


Ooooh even better, the streetcar is the gondola. At 2nd street it is pulled up off the track and carried in the air, then is gently dropped back down on the track at 10th ave. ;)

(Because I laugh now, by 10 years from now someone somewhere will have done this and it will work great.)
Your post for some reason reminded me of Buzzsaw Falls at Silver Dollar City. The world's first and last log flume/rollercoaster combo.

http://www.thrillride.com/buzzsawfalls/buzzsaw.html
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

here's the document which has the open space in NKC

http://www.nkc.org/docview.aspx?docid=19623
there's 2.3 million square feet available in 99 properties from small business to large business across that city.

The single biggest available in NKC is right on the potential route at 15th and Swift. Just on Swift there's of 15+ spaces available, mostly commercial space. There's 32 available spaces from Gentry to Burlington, all within walking distance of Swift.

NKC also has an existing shuttle bus route for inside the city movement.
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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

Post by NKC »

flyingember wrote:
moderne wrote:I am hearing North Kansas City wants to use its already approved light rail funds (NKC voted yes when KCMO last voted nix) to extend the streetcar north. Where would it go in NKC? I would think Burlington to Armour to NKC Hospital/Cerner/Harrahs?
the plan approved by voters was very specific to the previous light rail plan down to describing it's route
they certainly may want to make it easy, but will they be able to reuse it? that's the big question


as for the route, I pass through NKC daily. they need two branches, one after the other

the first branch to 32nd
Swift has a better growth possibility, it has all the commercial and residential and ends right at a huge potential park and ride spot/maintenance yard but Burlington could have a better alignment for going further north. tossup on which street to use.
this would have a stop every other block north of Armour, 2-3 stops south of Armour

the second branch to the east to NKC Hospital/Cerner. It's one of the densest employment centers in the city, but it doesn't help the next branch in KC.
this segment would have at most 4 stops. dpwntown, city hall, the new development at I-35, and NKC/Cerner

Keep in mind that KC already said that a line to Vivion is doable with the light rail plan and any NKC line needs to account for that.
It will be interesting to see how this comes out. I assume you are referring to the green space at 32nd and Swift as a logical park and ride spot. I agree, however they are building a 30,000 square foot medical building in that spot now. There is a very large space on the North side of 32nd Street that could be turned into a ~250 space parking lot (or even build a parking structure).

This would have to be done by Kansas City since the property north of 32nd is technically KCMO.
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Re: KCMO Downtown Streetcar

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NKC wrote:
flyingember wrote:
moderne wrote:I am hearing North Kansas City wants to use its already approved light rail funds (NKC voted yes when KCMO last voted nix) to extend the streetcar north. Where would it go in NKC? I would think Burlington to Armour to NKC Hospital/Cerner/Harrahs?
the plan approved by voters was very specific to the previous light rail plan down to describing it's route
they certainly may want to make it easy, but will they be able to reuse it? that's the big question


as for the route, I pass through NKC daily. they need two branches, one after the other

the first branch to 32nd
Swift has a better growth possibility, it has all the commercial and residential and ends right at a huge potential park and ride spot/maintenance yard but Burlington could have a better alignment for going further north. tossup on which street to use.
this would have a stop every other block north of Armour, 2-3 stops south of Armour

the second branch to the east to NKC Hospital/Cerner. It's one of the densest employment centers in the city, but it doesn't help the next branch in KC.
this segment would have at most 4 stops. dpwntown, city hall, the new development at I-35, and NKC/Cerner

Keep in mind that KC already said that a line to Vivion is doable with the light rail plan and any NKC line needs to account for that.
It will be interesting to see how this comes out. I assume you are referring to the green space at 32nd and Swift as a logical park and ride spot. I agree, however they are building a 30,000 square foot medical building in that spot now. There is a very large space on the North side of 32nd Street that could be turned into a ~250 space parking lot (or even build a parking structure).

This would have to be done by Kansas City since the property north of 32nd is technically KCMO.
I drive by 32nd and Swift 5 days a week. that's one intersection I know well.
The construction you're referring to is at 29th and Buchanan. it's an expansion of the senior living center. it's the only construction in that area going on right now.

I was referring to the lot to the north of 32nd you mention

It would need clarification for sure, but if you look at the parcel viewer the large plot between the dealer and Bossert's is shown as owned by NKC despite being outside their boundaries. They also own the lot on the other side of Bossert's and the levee there, they formed before KC existed north of the river so it's not surprising they control that land up to the levee

http://maps.kcmo.org/apps/parcelviewer/
APN: CL1731800010150001
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by NKC »

The senior facility at 29th is separate from what I'm talking about. That open space just north of the existing senior facility is a CBRE project. They are developing a 30,000 sq ft medical office. At least that is the plan. Regardless, there is plenty of open space on the north side of 32nd.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by DaveKCMO »

council will approve a budget today that authorizes $250,000 to study this extension (separate from the other phase 2 study).
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

Now that there's a real study to happen let's put all the ideas in one place

Existing conditions:

Transit
three bus lines come down N. Oak to NKC at 32nd
three bus lines converge at Vernon and MO 210
All six meet at 10th and Burlington
NKC has a local KCATA route to provide connector service inside NKC.

Jobs
the city is a major industrial center with facilities in both KC and NKC. Everything from automotive repair to a starch plant
there's lots of potential redevelopment options
There's a technical training center for buildings trades on Burlington and a Colorado Technical University location on Armour
There's two rail yards
There's Harrah's, NKC Hospital and Cerner on the east side of town, the last two are in the list of the region's biggest employers.

Residential.
There's a large amount of low to mid-income housing and a large number of apartments for the size of the city
There's a notable senior living complex
There's a new dense residential development half finished and a reasonably dense apartment complex less than two years old with space to expand both along Swift.


Options--

river crossing:
1. build a new transit/pedestrian bridge. would be expensive
2. use the ASB Bridge, you can still see hints of the original streetcar tracks on the top level. has potential approach problems plus is 100+ years old. may need replacing sooner than later.
3. use the HOA bridge. simpler but could be complex to get working with existing traffic

Terminus
1. 32nd St. best option for urban N. Oak corridor.
2. NKC Hospital. potential alternative as it serves jobs center. should have plan for this line's path even if details not worked out and install the switching track to simplify construction without closing N-S line

NKC route N-S options
1. Burlington. straight shot off the bridge but has heavy peak period traffic
2. Swift. much less traffic and redevelopment potential. closer to more jobs. would require redesign of 32nd and N. Oak intersection to go further north
3. Howell. requires long path to get to, would go more through center of industrial and residential areas compared to Swift

NKC Route E-W options
1. Armour. Lots of traffic but goes through residential district
2. 16th Ave. Current truck route
3. 10th Ave.

Park and Ride options
1. 32nd and Swift. large lot, could put storage track here as well. bad access to lot from the east
2. 10th and Clay. would require building tear out that is abandoned. good spot for industrial area and not much else.
3. 18th and Swift. near existing retail center and has good access from two directions
4. Clay Edwards and Walker. extend existing NKC Hospital lot to Walker.
5. Prather/Vernon and MO 210. south side of road. good access for line down Armour. Could put in pedestrian bridge for westbound stop.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by loftguy »

DaveKCMO wrote:council will approve a budget today that authorizes $250,000 to study this extension (separate from the other phase 2 study).
KCMo, or NKC council?
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

More route facts (approximate numbers)

The length from 3rd St to the edge of NKC (still on the bridge) is 0.85 miles.
Depending on the other lines going in at the same time and the maintenance track route, this could be up to 0.2 miles longer to get to 3rd and Grand.

Inside NKC:
2.1 miles from the city boundary via Swift -or- Burlington to 32nd and Swift
3.1 miles to go to NKC Hospital via either route
3.8 miles to do both branches via either route
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

NKC takes up the study in council tomorrow evening


Resolution authorizing the City of North Kansas City to enter into a Memorandum of Understanding with the City of Kansas City, Missouri regarding a study for a streetcar line. {Resolution No. 13-029}

Resolution amending the Gaming Fund budget for fiscal year 2012-2013, in the amount of $250,000, for the City’s share of the costs associated with a Federal study related to the streetcar initiative. {Resolution No. 13-030}
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by DaveKCMO »

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/04/01/41 ... -city.html
Under the agreement, each city would pay up to $250,000 to equally fund the study.

The Heart of America bridge was chosen in part because it’s near the streetcar starter line.

The study is expected to be completed by the end of the year, depending on the scope agreed upon by the two cities, said Tom Gerend, MARC’s assistant director of transportation.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by macnw »

The Steele bridge in Portland was designed by the same guys who did the ASB bridge. The Steele bridge carries car traffic, light rail traffic and Amtrak train traffic and is close to 100 years old.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

macnw wrote:The Steele bridge in Portland was designed by the same guys who did the ASB bridge. The Steele bridge carries car traffic, light rail traffic and Amtrak train traffic and is close to 100 years old.
I'm sure I could fine the information but do you know if the pylons designed by the same people? They did sit unused for years before the structure went up.
Did the Steele Bridge carry coal trains for decades? There could be a load difference between the two bridges that matters.

This is the one area I'm most interested in. The rest of the route is far less of a discussion than the bridge.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by taxi »

I could see this driving big economic development in Harlem.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

taxi wrote:I could see this driving big economic development in Harlem.
I doubt it.

The statistic mentioned is a streetcar drives growth up to 2 blocks away from the line, maybe it's 3-4 to some degree.

3 blocks in NKC is 0.2 mile
To Harlem from 10th Ave is ~0.75 miles walking

That's almost 4x further.

In terms of downtown, that's the streetcar driving development east of I-70 all the way to Tracy. That would be nice, but if that were the case why not lead with that idea for the starter line?
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by taxi »

The ASB bridge goes into Harlem, no? I'm gonna move there, just in case.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by flyingember »

taxi wrote:The ASB bridge goes into Harlem, no? I'm gonna move there, just in case.
Not so much. The original approach overshot Harlem and landed inside NKC on the other side of railroad property

Harlem is served by the Hannibal Bridge.

And I say served because if I was a pedestrian wanting to cross the river to Harlem, the Broadway is far more dangerous with the skinny central median and no pedestrian path. I'd choose the Hannibal Bridge because it has frequent gaps in train traffic and ladders to climb above trains.
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to North Kansas City

Post by taxi »

Thanks. I'll give it a try.
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