Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:38 pm

KCPowercat wrote:Are all the boards somewhere online?
Mr. Gerend has replies with each stop comparing center vs edge running side by side if you want to just see the stops

https://twitter.com/TomGerend/status/10 ... 2266253313

or use this where you can see the full length as either option but need to zoom in
http://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uploa ... dsMaps.pdf

Read all the little text notes, there's a lot of changes hidden in it that make for differences. Like 45th, Cleaver and Volker would have a transit only phase with edge running but not with center running. So for those intersections center running could mean shorter light cycles

Another interesting thing, the center running plan includes the trolley trail being extended across Brush Creek

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by scooterj » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:52 am

flyingember wrote:Another interesting thing, the center running plan includes the trolley trail being extended across Brush Creek

But but but I thought the streetcar was going to destroy the trolley track trail? :-P

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCtoBrooklyn » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:18 am

moderne wrote:There won't be any midtown riff raff to worry about anymore. The streetcar generated gentrification will drive them out. Midtown will no longer be a great supply of affordable housing. The affordable housing crisis in this city is going to come to a head here.
I imagine it will be many years before the possibility of Midtown being completely gentrified/not affordable. I think there are enough landlords who don't want to sell and don't want to put in the necessary upgrades to charge a premium for their properties to keep housing relatively affordable. They may be able to up the rents a a fair amount, but I don't think we will be looking at anything near Downtown level pricing. Section 8 landlords can currently make good money and may have little motivation to change anything.

It will be interesting to see if Knaack Properties makes any significant changes. They provide a lot of low priced housing very near the streetcar extension line. With KCAI adding a 250 bed housing building, maybe they will change their model and go upscale, but I doubt it.

I don't think KC will have a real affordable housing crisis in the foreseeable future. There will still be vast swaths of the city with cheap housing. I don't mean to sound callous or dismissive of the plight of those who may be priced out of their current location by streetcar generated gentrification, but for those people, it might just mean moving less than a mile to the east.

Midtown probably should be one of the priciest regions of the city. It is very centrally located, right between two of the most desirable and expensive parts of the city. It has great building stock, some nice, dense, walkable areas.

In some ways, I think Midtown becoming unaffordable would be a great thing for the city. As long as there is cheap housing in Midtown, I don't think the East Side, Northeast, or KCK will see significant changes. Yes, it will suck if Midtown loses its diversity and soul, and becomes completely yuppie-fied, but at that point, I would happily move to the Northeast, or whichever area takes over as the next Midtown.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by anonkcmo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:57 am

KCtoBrooklyn wrote:
moderne wrote:There won't be any midtown riff raff to worry about anymore. The streetcar generated gentrification will drive them out. Midtown will no longer be a great supply of affordable housing. The affordable housing crisis in this city is going to come to a head here.
I imagine it will be many years before the possibility of Midtown being completely gentrified/not affordable.

I don't think KC will have a real affordable housing crisis in the foreseeable future. There will still be vast swaths of the city with cheap housing. I don't mean to sound callous or dismissive of the plight of those who may be priced out of their current location by streetcar generated gentrification, but for those people, it might just mean moving less than a mile to the east.

Midtown probably should be one of the priciest regions of the city. It is very centrally located, right between two of the most desirable and expensive parts of the city. It has great building stock, some nice, dense, walkable areas.

In some ways, I think Midtown becoming unaffordable would be a great thing for the city. As long as there is cheap housing in Midtown, I don't think the East Side, Northeast, or KCK will see significant changes. Yes, it will suck if Midtown loses its diversity and soul, and becomes completely yuppie-fied, but at that point, I would happily move to the Northeast, or whichever area takes over as the next Midtown.
Exactly. Rebuilding the city works exactly the same way as when it was originally built; from downtown (center) outward.
The suburban mindset that failed is to rebuild and developed disparate areas piecemeal to appease that area - that doesn't work.
18th & Vine being a perfect example, only now are the leaders understanding that residential and development is needed along 18th. Develop residential and retail along 18th and the Jazz District will thrive. A critical mass of renovated and new development is the only thing that will eventually stop blight in the outer ring neighborhoods as the development spreads outward.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:32 pm

anonkcmo wrote:
Exactly. Rebuilding the city works exactly the same way as when it was originally built; from downtown (center) outward.
The suburban mindset that failed is to rebuild and developed disparate areas piecemeal to appease that area - that doesn't work.
it most certainly did not just develop from the center outwards. It developed piecemeal from the beginning.

It was developers being able to buy a specific farm at a preferred location far away from Westport that jumpstarted the city. Westport didn't build outwards, developers built something new far away.

Many developers ran track to their land well before the space in between was filled with anything to sell the space. Overland Park is the best example of this. The Hocker Line started running in 1903.

This happened all across the east side. Buy whatever land you could, lay track to reach it, profit, let others sell later.
We're still doing this, only with roads instead.

Also, KC annexed other towns and villages for much of it's history. The modern city developed in tons of tiny little areas, many predating KC itself that already had development around them

Here's some of the piecemeal places the city annexed:
Westport, Leeds, Dodson, Holmes Park, Centropolis, New Santa Fe, Harlem, Waldo, Martin City, Hickman Mills, Nashua, Barry, Moscow, Arnold, Minaville, Maple Park, Northern Heights, Milton.

Waldo was on a train line into KC for decades before the city reached it with development. It was founded in the 1840s and not annexed until 1909. It had 50 years to build up far out from the city.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by anonkcmo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:32 am

This might help you. This is KC as a real city in 1907. You can see it is a tight, urbanized city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... y_1907.jpg
Last edited by anonkcmo on Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by anonkcmo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:32 am

...
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by anonkcmo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:33 am

[quote="flyingember"]
it most certainly did not just develop from the center outwards. It developed piecemeal from the beginning.
It was developers being able to buy a specific farm at a preferred location far away from Westport that jumpstarted the city. Westport didn't build outwards, developers built something new far away.
[/quote]


You're completely full of shit, you have no clue how the city limits formed. You seem bent on arguing.
The original city limits extended from the Missouri river south to 49th St, and east to the Little Blue River.
By 1907, KC was a built out, high density city core as it grew outward, just as I stated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... y_1907.jpg

[quote="flyingember"]
Many developers ran track to their land well before the space in between was filled with anything to sell the space. Overland Park is the best example of this. The Hocker Line started running in 1903.[/quote]


Overland Park (WTF?) is not even a part of the discussion, KC was a large, built out city when Westport was incorporated in 1897.
Strang's development was in the country side and has nothing to do with how KC developed.

[quote="flyingember"]
This happened all across the east side. Buy whatever land you could, lay track to reach it, profit, let others sell later.
We're still doing this, only with roads instead.[/quote]


WTF does this even mean? Nonsense.

[quote="flyingember"]
Also, KC annexed other towns and villages for much of it's history. The modern city developed in tons of tiny little areas, many predating KC itself that already had development around them [/quote]


There were no incorporated towns or villages, any patches of housing were named after the land owner and had no official jurisdictions. We all know that KCMO has annexed land, but not until much, much later, (1950's>) well after the original core was established. You don't know what you're talking about.


[quote="flyingember"]
Here's some of the piecemeal places the city annexed:
Westport, Leeds, Dodson, Holmes Park, Centropolis, New Santa Fe, Harlem, Waldo, Martin City, Hickman Mills, Nashua, Barry, Moscow, Arnold, Minaville, Maple Park, Northern Heights, Milton. [/quote]


Other than Westport, all of those places were already a part of the urban fabric of KCMO by 1907 (SEE MAP).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... y_1907.jpg

[quote="flyingember"]
Waldo was on a train line into KC for decades before the city reached it with development. It was founded in the 1840s and not annexed until 1909. It had 50 years to build up far out from the city.[/quote]


Waldo has nothing to do with the original city core, it was incorporated as a streetcar suburb in 1909.

A city is rebuilt from the core outward. Building development in disparate areas to appease neighborhood leaders only dissolves the hope of a critical mass and scatters a city's limited resources, never really solving anything. We see how KCMO again and again kicked itself in the groin. Building Kemper Arena in the ghost-town west bottoms until it deteriorated and socking a ton of $$ into the ghost-town of 18th & Vine.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by wahoowa » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:41 am

c-c-c-combo breaker!!

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:42 pm

anonkcmo wrote: [quote="flyingember"]
Here's some of the piecemeal places the city annexed:
Westport, Leeds, Dodson, Holmes Park, Centropolis, New Santa Fe, Harlem, Waldo, Martin City, Hickman Mills, Nashua, Barry, Moscow, Arnold, Minaville, Maple Park, Northern Heights, Milton.


Other than Westport, all of those places were already a part of the urban fabric of KCMO by 1907 (SEE MAP).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... y_1907.jpg

[/quote]
ONLY Westport was part of KC at that time. All the others are way outside that boundary. Waldo isn't even shown on it, for example.

If you don't understand where places are the rest of your points are suspect. It shows you don't understand how the city grew at all.

These are not part of KC in 1907 and don't show on it:
Leeds, Dodson, Holmes Park, New Santa Fe, Harlem, Martin City, Hickman Mills, Nashua, Barry, Moscow, Arnold, Minaville, Maple Park, Northern Heights, Milton.

[quote]
The original city limits extended from the Missouri river south to 49th St, and east to the Little Blue River.
[/quote]
HORRIBLY wrong. The city stopped at 9th St originally. You're talking about the boundary after the 5th set of annexations!

Turn on the annexation layer on this map

http://maps.kcmo.org/apps/parcelviewer/


You've decided to not only insult me, you don't even know how wrong your are to the point it just makes you look silly.

Westport was miles outside the city limits originally. Remember, Westport predates downtown by years!

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by anonkcmo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:56 pm

flyingember wrote: HORRIBLY wrong. The city stopped at 9th St originally. You're talking about the boundary after the 5th set of annexations!
You are hung up on undeveloped land annexation, I'm discussing urban DEVELOPMENT.
That is clearly the topic, but you've managed to start another meaningless argument
Every city historically goes through growth - outward.
My comment and discussion is about urban development and creating a critical mass.
That starts with when KC became a real city, not the dirt-road, gulley town that went to 9th street.
You can show all of the land-grab annexations you want, none of them grabbed urbanized development after Westport in 1909.
The annexations were 95% open land with a few estates/houses.
Your entire point is moot...typical really.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by mean » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:02 pm

Mikey?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:20 pm

anonkcmo wrote:
flyingember wrote: HORRIBLY wrong. The city stopped at 9th St originally. You're talking about the boundary after the 5th set of annexations!
You are hung up on undeveloped land annexation, I'm discussing urban DEVELOPMENT.
That is clearly the topic, but you've managed to start another meaningless argument
Every city historically goes through growth - outward.
My comment and discussion is about urban development and creating a critical mass.
That starts with when KC became a real city, not the dirt-road, gulley town that went to 9th street.
You can show all of the land-grab annexations you want, none of them grabbed urbanized development after Westport in 1909.
The annexations were 95% open land with a few estates/houses.
Your entire point is moot...typical really.
you still don’t get it

Urban development was suburbs. There were areas with single family homes downtown remaining in 1939.

What you describe as urban development was piecemeal at best as homes were replaced over decades.m.

Two Examples-
http://kchistory.org/content/sanborn-ma ... -page-p085

http://kchistory.org/content/sanborn-ma ... -page-p040

Westport wasn’t annexed urban development. It was suburbs with homes on suburban style lots. The city annexed neighborhoods full of single family homes and it’s been building up ever since.

http://kchistory.org/content/sanborn-ma ... -page-p087

There’s tons of maps that show just how long it too for urban development to happen across the city.

90% of your 1909 map was streetcar suburbs full of singleness family homes and small apartment buildings. You can use these maps and see how long some areas took to develop.

Kansas City grew out before it grew up and it’s gone up piecemeal.

Like the apartment buildings along Brush Creek are older than most of the downtown buildings we have today. The Raphael Hotel dates to 1928.

This has a simple reason, you can’t make someone sell. So developers put buildings where they owned land

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by anonkcmo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:12 pm

[quote="flyingember"]
Westport wasn’t annexed urban development. It was suburbs with homes on suburban style lots. The city annexed neighborhoods full of single family homes and it’s been building up ever since. [/quote]


You're even more clueless than I imagined you were before.
The term "suburb" used in the USA was not even codified until after WWII. You wrongly keep applying the term to any and all urban housing which happens to have a small front yard. That doesn't apply in Kansas City's case.

[quote="flyingember"]
Kansas City grew out before it grew up and it’s gone up piecemeal. [/quote]


Wrong. The city had a definitive BUILT UP downtown core and business district. here's a photo from 1927 proving you wrong.
Image

[quote="flyingember"]
Like the apartment buildings along Brush Creek are older than most of the downtown buildings we have today. The Raphael Hotel dates to 1928.[/quote]


Using a few buildings from the Plaza doesn't prove anything, you said Westport's built environment was "suburban" when Kelly's building is older then the Raphael, you're all over the place scrambling for validity.

This is all way off topic and you're not capable of reason so I'll just stop with you already and let you move onto annoying someone else.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:32 pm

Yes, way off topic slap-fest. Please stop.

Regards,

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by MidtownCat » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:40 am

So are we going to get a trolley to the Plaza in my lifetime or what?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:11 am

Yes

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by mykn » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:21 am

Depends, what's how long are you going to live?

http://www.deathclock.com

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by earthling » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:31 am

Up and running in six years I'd guess, most optimistic is 4 or so.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:43 am

earthling wrote:Up and running in six years I'd guess, most optimistic is 4 or so.
If it follows a similar pattern to the starter line four years is reasonable.

For the current system:
The second election was certified Dec 12, 2012
The system was fully funded August 30, 2013
The official groundbreaking was May 22, 2014
Grand opening was May 6, 2016

so 3.5 years from election to operations. There was a lawsuit mixed in there too.

As is already clear, it all comes down to financing. Things move very quickly once the money is available.
Let's assume the election passes, matching money makes it in the next federal budget in March. Best case operations begins in early 2022.

Timeline
viewtopic.php?t=18087

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