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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:13 am
by DaveKCMO
flyingember wrote:
ldai_phs wrote:I don't think our current cars are capable of being coupled together. I think a modification to the coupling system would be required.

Would still be cheaper than buying all new trains.


Coupling is possible with a vehicle modification. They are light rail vehicles, after all. However, you'd have to modify downtown platforms and that's not in the plan at this time.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:29 am
by flyingember
DaveKCMO wrote:
flyingember wrote:
ldai_phs wrote:I don't think our current cars are capable of being coupled together. I think a modification to the coupling system would be required.

Would still be cheaper than buying all new trains.


Coupling is possible with a vehicle modification. They are light rail vehicles, after all. However, you'd have to modify downtown platforms and that's not in the plan at this time.

This is true, but the basic idea is there's no need to make a decision between buying more vehicles for greater frequency vs buying longer for capacity when we can do both in the future when the time is right. We're not remotely wasting money by buying all the same length of train.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:41 pm
by moderne
They are gathering petition signatures at the Union Hill leasing office to get a stop at 31st.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:03 pm
by beautyfromashes
Just have both the Linwood and 31st stops. Not worth pissing off a large group of supporters just to cut one stop, especially since either are better than the 45st St stop.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:02 am
by flyingember
beautyfromashes wrote:Just have both the Linwood and 31st stops. Not worth pissing off a large group of supporters just to cut one stop, especially since either are better than the 45st St stop.

Just have one long stop serving both streets better. Why does the train need to stop a block apart to make a small number of people happy when they can walk an extra block?

45th is the most direct route to KCAI, American Century, two hotels, Kemper and The Nelson and there's a ton of apartment density within reach of it. That stop will likely get more use than 31st or Linwood would.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:23 am
by ldai_phs
why does a stop have to be at Linwood over 31st? Is it due to a future streetcar route down Linwood?

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:37 am
by DaveKCMO
The goal was to reduce travel times over the existing MAX. Most of the riders of MAX at 31st are transferring from #31, so to argue for a stop there would be to assume there will be induced demand (which is a valid argument based on experience downtown, but not an argument based on existing data).

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:36 am
by moderne
The petition is to have a 31st stop in addition not instead of Linwood. Union Hill has more population density than any other neighborhood on the extension route until you get to the Plaza. Back when its renewal began in the eighties it was the only new housing being built between DT and the Plaza. Martini Row is the only entertainment district between Crown Center and Westport.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:40 am
by KCPowercat
I'd lean towards 31st over linwood too because of the Union Hill population (although some of them may find 27th easier?)

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:45 am
by moderne
Only those in the rowhouses down the hill adjacent to the cemetery entrance

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:49 am
by beautyfromashes
The part of Union Hill south of 31st has largely been neglected. I’d love to see the neighborhood and Martini Corner expand into the empty land all the way to Linwood. I think putting the stop on Linwood would push this expansion and be better for the neighborhood. There is space there enough for MC to become more similar to Westport. The Russell is an example of the type of places that could pop up in that area.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:53 am
by scooterj
flyingember wrote:
beautyfromashes wrote:Just have both the Linwood and 31st stops. Not worth pissing off a large group of supporters just to cut one stop, especially since either are better than the 45st St stop.

Just have one long stop serving both streets better. Why does the train need to stop a block apart to make a small number of people happy when they can walk an extra block?



There needs to be be a Union Hill stop that is separate from Linwood, and in my opinion the stop should be at 30th. That's the closest intersection to being halfway between 27th and Linwood. 30th is the most direct access point to Main for most of Union Hill's housing, including a ton of apartments and condos, as well as a hotel.

In the CBD, which is far more pedestrian friendly than anything between 27th & and Linwood, streetcar stops are spaced about every 2 blocks because that's where they need to be in order for people to be willing to walk to the stops and use the streetcar. And those are SHORT blocks.

The blocks in Midtown are 40% longer. Saying people in Union Hill can just "walk an extra block" is oversimplifying because not only is it at best an extra three blocks (on a hill) from where most of the people live, that works out to the equivalent distance of just under 5 blocks in the CBD. If you overlay the CBD into the same space that the streetcar span skips over to snub Union Hill, it's as if the streetcar went from the 7th Street stop to about half a block shy of the Kauffman Center stop without any stops in-between. And that would be ridiculous.

Seriously, what's the cost to add one more bench and sign so that the people in Union Hill who are paying for this thing can have a convenient stop like is being given to everyone else in Midtown except them?

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:59 am
by beautyfromashes
^Agreed. Union Hill needs a stop. I just don’t see why it has to be either or with Linwood (which also needs a stop). The travel times added for one stop is negligible. I do know there are always people waiting at the Linwood stop, probably as many as any DT stop.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:01 am
by DaveKCMO
Stop spacing is a challenge. There are standards, which the team is trying to adhere to, that will improve travel times. Adding stops matters more than you think, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

IF WE DON'T IMPROVE TRAVEL TIME, THE PROJECT MAY NOT SCORE WELL FOR FEDERAL FUNDING.

The feds don't just hand out grants to upgrade bus route to rail. There's a process. As you know... no federal funding, no streetcar extension to UMKC. If we keep all of the MAX stops, we may inhibit flexibility for other design decisions (lane choice, signal priority, the ability to turn left across the alignment).

As I've said before, the process is designed to adapt to feedback. We made similar adjustments downtown, but we weren't following the traditional FTA "Small Starts" process so there was no focus on travel times. If you haven't take the survey about proposed stops, DO IT NOW:

http://kcstreetcar.org/feedback-survey/

Quantity matters.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:05 am
by beautyfromashes
^ Why does “quantity matter”? Of course you will get more response from those wanting the 31st St stop since you’re planning to take it away. This decision shouldn’t be made by tics on a survey. If it has to be between two stops, let the experts decide based on ridership numbers.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:08 am
by DaveKCMO
beautyfromashes wrote:^ Why does “quantity matter”? Of course you will get more response from those wanting the 31st St stop since you’re planning to take it away. This decision shouldn’t be made by tics on a survey. If it has to be between two stops, let the experts decide based on ridership numbers.


The proposal was based on data, as outlined above (ridership at 31st is based on current MAX, not some future prediction of induced demand). Show the proposal to the public and let them respond. That's how the process works. That's why we have stop lights on Watkins and a curb stop at Union Station.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:28 am
by beautyfromashes
DaveKCMO wrote:The proposal was based on data, as outlined above (ridership at 31st is based on current MAX, not some future prediction of induced demand). Show the proposal to the public and let them respond. That's how the process works. That's why we have stop lights on Watkins and a curb stop at Union Station.

Then stick with the proposal. Some survey on a website that people riding the bus from the east side now are never going to see shouldn’t sway opinion. Hard numbers, like you said, is probably also the best way to get federal funding. I am surprised that 45th St has more ridership than 31st though. I do hate to hear people yell about voting no based on a stop. That seems a bit nose to face.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:41 pm
by moderne
This has a great many residents of Union Hill in a tizzy. I haven't any facts, but I would bet UH had some of the highest voter participation in the district. People feel they got a bait and switch. The petition already has over a hundred names and it will be circulated tomorrow when there is an invitation only open house at the hotel converted to apartments at 30th & Main. This really could upend the next round in the voting.

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:22 pm
by KCPowercat
moderne wrote:Only those in the rowhouses down the hill adjacent to the cemetery entrance


2900 gillham....1/2 mile to 27th and main, .6 miles to 31st.

I agree though, 31st would be more useful to many

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:23 pm
by KCPowercat
No way 31st and linwood both need a stop....but I'm team 31st between the two.