Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby tower » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:32 am

If the streetcar through midtown had a dedicated ROW, I assume it would have to be run in the center of the street?

I'm all for both of those things, but how do you you link that up with the current track? It would have to have an akward lane change at Union station or the track would have to be redone all the way back to 20th, the way I see it.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby dnweava » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:45 am

tower wrote:If the streetcar through midtown had a dedicated ROW, I assume it would have to be run in the center of the street?

I'm all for both of those things, but how do you you link that up with the current track? It would have to have an akward lane change at Union station or the track would have to be redone all the way back to 20th, the way I see it.


changing from curb to center running at union station would be easy. Give all cars a red light and streetcar changes lanes in the intersection by union station, no different than how the streetcar changes lanes by union station now when it goes from station to the northbound lane.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:48 am

tower wrote:If the streetcar through midtown had a dedicated ROW, I assume it would have to be run in the center of the street?

I'm all for both of those things, but how do you you link that up with the current track? It would have to have an akward lane change at Union station or the track would have to be redone all the way back to 20th, the way I see it.


dedicated ROW works best in the center. even shared works best in the center if you plan to dedicate that space in the future. the lane change at union station would probably need to occur inside the intersection since it's already signalized.

the project team is working through how to quantitatively assess the best lane now. pretty sure the public will have options to review at the first public meeting. surprisingly, the only streetcar project to contemplate this was charlotte's starter line. seattle's latest expansion (center connector) is going all-center and off-wire. portland's first network map has been built and they are contemplating a new expansion plan now (starting with northwest).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby ldai_phs » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:38 am

Has taking, for example, an entire side (ex. SouthBound Lanes) ever been used as the dedicated right of way?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby tower » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:57 am

Switching at the intersection would work okay. I was envisioning it switching at the current lane swap area, for some reason. It would be nice to see streetcar being moved to the center between union station and 20th at a later point.

ldai_phs wrote:Has taking, for example, an entire side (ex. SouthBound Lanes) been used as the dedicated right of way?

Image


If you had the entire SB side as the right of way, you would have cars needing to cross over to get into parking lots, garages, etc, but if you have it in the center, you only need to allow cars to cross at major intersections. Also, what would be the benefit? (vs Center)

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby flyingember » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:45 pm

Putting both lanes to one side would be much like a two way cycle track on one side.

Running two train lanes on the west side of the road Pershing through 27th could have some value because it would never interact with the condo access along Main for those crown center towers and reduces the number of places cars will interact. NB Crossover at Pershing and NB to EB and EB to SB turns won’t cross track.

Imagine a future hypothetical of a train that avoids the trolley trail park and uses Brookside Blvd. could run both tracks in the current NB lanes and have way fewer interactions with driveways until 59th

So for select areas where impact is limited to one side of the road, it makes sense

For most of midtown, it doesn’t.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby ldai_phs » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:22 pm

Is there any talk of what the Phase Three Expansion would be?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:25 pm

ldai_phs wrote:Is there any talk of what the Phase Three Expansion would be?


no.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby JBmidtown » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:51 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:
ldai_phs wrote:Is there any talk of what the Phase Three Expansion would be?


no.


It should be the Linwood route proposed in 2014.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby grovester » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:41 pm

It will be interesting to see how the east side opinion changes after implementation of the starter line and likely approval of the extension.

But then again, they could have just sent them 60k.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:16 pm

linwood is the most likely. it ranked 2nd in the 2014 expansion plan. independence ave is getting the MAX treatment.

this all assumes someone steps up to lead the fight. i'm done after main street.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby Pork Chop » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:36 am

DaveKCMO wrote:linwood is the most likely. it ranked 2nd in the 2014 expansion plan. independence ave is getting the MAX treatment.

this all assumes someone steps up to lead the fight. i'm done after main street.


Thank you for the amount of energy you put into getting the streetcar started and in the fight to expand it. I do not know of anyone else that has fought as long and as hard as you are doing.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:38 am

Pork Chop wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:linwood is the most likely. it ranked 2nd in the 2014 expansion plan. independence ave is getting the MAX treatment.

this all assumes someone steps up to lead the fight. i'm done after main street.


Thank you for the amount of energy you put into getting the streetcar started and in the fight to expand it. I do not know of anyone else that has fought as long and as hard as you are doing.


for free? none.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby flyingember » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:17 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
Pork Chop wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:linwood is the most likely. it ranked 2nd in the 2014 expansion plan. independence ave is getting the MAX treatment.

this all assumes someone steps up to lead the fight. i'm done after main street.


Thank you for the amount of energy you put into getting the streetcar started and in the fight to expand it. I do not know of anyone else that has fought as long and as hard as you are doing.


for free? none.


Maybe Chastain would be close, but he wasn't exactly successful at it and filed court cases and that counts against him.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby ldai_phs » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:46 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
Pork Chop wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:linwood is the most likely. it ranked 2nd in the 2014 expansion plan. independence ave is getting the MAX treatment.

this all assumes someone steps up to lead the fight. i'm done after main street.


Thank you for the amount of energy you put into getting the streetcar started and in the fight to expand it. I do not know of anyone else that has fought as long and as hard as you are doing.


for free? none.

Thank-you for your work! Hopefully after this next expansion, more people will be leading efforts.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby loftguy » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:25 am

flyingember wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:
Pork Chop wrote:
Thank you for the amount of energy you put into getting the streetcar started and in the fight to expand it. I do not know of anyone else that has fought as long and as hard as you are doing.


for free? none.


Maybe Chastain would be close, but he wasn't exactly successful at it and filed court cases and that counts against him.


You do a serious disservice to David by making this comparison.
Chastain has taken moments to conjure fantasy and a few hours to grandstand.
David has committed endless hours for years, doing the hard work to make civic progress.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby chingon » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:13 pm

grovester wrote:It will be interesting to see how the east side opinion changes after implementation of the starter line and likely approval of the extension.

But then again, they could have just sent them 60k.


It wouldn’t have taken that much. Pride goeth before the fall. And if a few people, 1 man in particular, hadn’t been so stubborn, we might well be building that network right now. The same people who wouldn’t pay Freedom off in that election have no problem spreading the money around to a small cadre of developers, business “community” members and “stakeholders”.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby flyingember » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:28 pm

loftguy wrote:
flyingember wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:
for free? none.


Maybe Chastain would be close, but he wasn't exactly successful at it and filed court cases and that counts against him.


You do a serious disservice to David by making this comparison.
Chastain has taken moments to conjure fantasy and a few hours to grandstand.
David has committed endless hours for years, doing the hard work to make civic progress.

Focusing only on quantity of work does an even bigger disservice.

Chastain has clearly worked for way longer in terms of number of years. His efforts go back to 1992 around union station becoming a transit center during the same years Dave was in college outside of KC. So the "as long" part goes to Chastain.

Is making a continual effort over 25+ years more or less hard work than someone putting in a ton of effort in less time? That's really tough to argue either way. Remember, a Chastain plan was the first one to pass an election and the only citywide pass so far so he produced some success even if his methods are bad.

Dave's approach is clearly better and that's what should be recognized. He provided way more value to the city regardless of who the winner is of any "mine is bigger" contest.

Here's a story why getting stuck on quantity misses the point of providing value.
https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?s ... f_Code.txt

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby Highlander » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:46 pm

flyingember wrote:
loftguy wrote:
flyingember wrote:
Maybe Chastain would be close, but he wasn't exactly successful at it and filed court cases and that counts against him.


You do a serious disservice to David by making this comparison.
Chastain has taken moments to conjure fantasy and a few hours to grandstand.
David has committed endless hours for years, doing the hard work to make civic progress.

Focusing only on quantity of work does an even bigger disservice.

Chastain has clearly worked for way longer in terms of number of years. His efforts go back to 1992 around union station becoming a transit center during the same years Dave was in college outside of KC. So the "as long" part goes to Chastain.

Is making a continual effort over 25+ years more or less hard work than someone putting in a ton of effort in less time? That's really tough to argue either way. Remember, a Chastain plan was the first one to pass an election and the only citywide pass so far so he produced some success even if his methods are bad.

Dave's approach is clearly better and that's what should be recognized. He provided way more value to the city regardless of who the winner is of any "mine is bigger" contest.

Here's a story why getting stuck on quantity misses the point of providing value.
https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?s ... f_Code.txt


There's no comparison here. I do not believe Chastain has does anything for KC's efforts to create a public transportation. In fact, I'd say Chastain's "efforts" have been negative. While it was not Chastain's intent, his involvement in the KC public transportation debate have had results more similar to those hoped to be achieved by CFRG rather than anything that would push forward a true light rail/street car agenda. Obviously, that wasn't the road map that Chastain planned out but it is what he accomplished - essentially nothing other than a public relation major setback for rail transportation in the city. I do not blame Chastain for trying early on (although I do think his motives even then got tangled up with some personal agendas that were not in the best interest of any public transportation program) but at some point he needed to realize the negative reaction to public transportation that became associated with his name and simply bow out of the process. Even now, I'm not sure he has finished.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby flyingember » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:08 pm

Chastain’s efforts led the city to put the 2009 ballot item up with the KCATA. Their plan was better but he did show people wanted rail, it was the funding that was the issue.

This is a clear precursor to the TDD efforts. This effort took the lessons learned and came up with a winning method of financing with the TDD model and did it in a smart way. The free ballot signing events are the genius of the process and this selfless giving up of time is worthy of respect.

Chastains efforts really became crazy bad only after the city threw out his plan that passed. He did that 1990s recall attempt but it looks like the city refused to put petitions on the ballot then so he’s someone validated there. His name wasn’t so bad in 2008 that a majority was against it. That wasn’t true 5 years later.

It’s only about the time he left KC that his efforts went off the rails completely.


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