Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Transportation topics in KC
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 15623
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:04 am

well, let's get started talking about it now. study could get underway this year. formal alternatives analysis no longer required due to approval of MAP-21 (new federal transpo law), thus reducing the cost and time it takes to study.

vote here to make sure it's part of the new midtown/plaza area plan: http://midtownplaza.mindmixer.com/transportation/extend-streetcar-to-umkc

initial proposal would be ~4 miles from pershing to 51st street, mostly using main street. no stop locations or costs have been analyzed. how would YOU plan it?

Image

earthling
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3918
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby earthling » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:17 am

What form of funding will be pursued.

User avatar
Eon Blue
Colonnade
Colonnade
Posts: 906
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:28 pm
Location: Downtown KCMO

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby Eon Blue » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:21 am

Is it too lazy to just take over the Main Street MAX stop locations and route, and then route the MAX route on JC Nichols/Broadway north of the Plaza? We could add a stop for Crown Center at 27th, and new stops at each spot to match what was already built downtown.

earthling
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3918
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby earthling » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:25 am

Yeah, I would hope to see entire Orange MAX line being moved to JCN/Broadway.

User avatar
smh
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2677
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby smh » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:36 am

Stop spacing is a big question for me. A lot of the MAX stops are too close together for what MAX was supposed to accomplish in my opinion. The streetcar on the other hand is a more local vehicle downtown. Should it operate the same through Midtown, or should the stops be further apart in an effort to make the trip from Downtown to UMKC take less time?

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 15623
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:42 am

smh wrote:Stop spacing is a big question for me. A lot of the MAX stops are too close together for what MAX was supposed to accomplish in my opinion. The streetcar on the other hand is a more local vehicle downtown. Should it operate the same through Midtown, or should the stops be further apart in an effort to make the trip from Downtown to UMKC take less time?


could the streetcar be an effective circulator in midtown? are midtown's top activity centers aligned along main? one could argue that MAX is performing that function today.

also, if you move MAX to broadway you'd need to figure out a way to serve it's route south of 51st (which is run as local service today). perhaps simply replace with improved local service and force connection at 51st? or run express from 51st to downtown? lots of ways to slice it.

User avatar
smh
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2677
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby smh » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:48 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
smh wrote:Stop spacing is a big question for me. A lot of the MAX stops are too close together for what MAX was supposed to accomplish in my opinion. The streetcar on the other hand is a more local vehicle downtown. Should it operate the same through Midtown, or should the stops be further apart in an effort to make the trip from Downtown to UMKC take less time?


could the streetcar be an effective circulator in midtown? are midtown's top activity centers aligned along main? one could argue that MAX is performing that function today.

also, if you move MAX to broadway you'd need to figure out a way to serve it's route south of 51st (which is run as local service today). perhaps simply replace with improved local service and force connection at 51st? or run express from 51st to downtown? lots of ways to slice it.


My first reaction would be to make the streetcar a "limited stop" service through Midtown just one or two stops and then run local busses along side it. In that way it would operate more as a downtown circulator that happens to make runs south.

I have no idea.

User avatar
Eon Blue
Colonnade
Colonnade
Posts: 906
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:28 pm
Location: Downtown KCMO

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby Eon Blue » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:56 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
smh wrote:Stop spacing is a big question for me. A lot of the MAX stops are too close together for what MAX was supposed to accomplish in my opinion. The streetcar on the other hand is a more local vehicle downtown. Should it operate the same through Midtown, or should the stops be further apart in an effort to make the trip from Downtown to UMKC take less time?


could the streetcar be an effective circulator in midtown? are midtown's top activity centers aligned along main? one could argue that MAX is performing that function today.

also, if you move MAX to broadway you'd need to figure out a way to serve it's route south of 51st (which is run as local service today). perhaps simply replace with improved local service and force connection at 51st? or run express from 51st to downtown? lots of ways to slice it.


Once MAX is south of the downtown meandering, it already moves pretty quickly. The biggest slowdown point between downtown and UMKC is where it cuts over from Main to JC Nichols at 47th, and through the South Plaza area back to Brookside Blvd. In my scenario, the MAX would take JC Nichols to Broadway north of 47th and remain unchanged south of 47th. North of 47th it would behave as the MAX does now on Main Street. It could cut over to Wyandotte at Southwest Boulevard or somewhere else in the Crossroads, and then proceed through Downtown the way it does now.

For speed's sake, the streetcar would stay on Main/Brookside all the way to 51st, but that makes a longer walk for streetcar riders to get to the Plaza, especially destinations on the west end. Somebody smarter than me would have to figure out how best to serve the Plaza with the streetcar while balancing travel time to UMKC.

User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby beautyfromashes » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:58 am

DaveKCMO wrote:also, if you move MAX to broadway you'd need to figure out a way to serve it's route south of 51st (which is run as local service today). perhaps simply replace with improved local service and force connection at 51st? or run express from 51st to downtown? lots of ways to slice it.


Could the Broadway MAX line cut over to Wornall to continue on to the Brookside Shops and on to Waldo? I would think that addition would get more ridership then Brookside Blvd from 51st St to 63rd and you'd have a stop at Loose Park.

User avatar
smh
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2677
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby smh » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:59 am

Streetcar tunnel under the Plaza with a stop at Nichols Road and Broadway. BOOM!

User avatar
chrizow
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 16935
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:43 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby chrizow » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:02 am

i think a streetcar stop at 47/Main is plenty close to the plaza. putting the stop one block over on broadway only makes the stop slightly closer to the plaza and isn't worth diverting the streetcar for it imo. people can walk a half block through a pleasant park area. destinations on the far west side of the plaza will seem far away, but i doubt highwoods would let the streetcar go through the middle of the plaza anyhow.

also keep in mind that Main is more proximate than Broadway to other destinations in midtown like home depot/costco, KCAI, and the art museums. it is one block farther from central westport, but i think that is okay - that area around westport/main and westport road east of broadway could use a shot in the arm anyway.

to me it is completely obvious for the streetcar to go down Main to 51. indeed i could see a further spur going down to 63rd or meyer along brookside, and even on down wornall to waldo.

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 15623
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:07 am

Eon Blue wrote:Somebody smarter than me would have to figure out how best to serve the Plaza with the streetcar while balancing travel time to UMKC.


tear down those stupid tennis courts and build retail and residential so that there's an actual reason for people to exist on 47th at main.

earthling
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3918
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby earthling » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:09 am

chrizow wrote:i think a streetcar stop at 47/Main is plenty close to the plaza. putting the stop one block over on broadway only makes the stop slightly closer to the plaza and isn't worth diverting the streetcar for it imo. people can walk a half block through a pleasant park area. destinations on the far west side of the plaza will seem far away, but i doubt highwoods would let the streetcar go through the middle of the plaza anyhow.

also keep in mind that Main is more proximate than Broadway to other destinations in midtown like home depot/costco, KCAI, and the art museums. it is one block farther from central westport, but i think that is okay - that area around westport/main and westport road east of broadway could use a shot in the arm anyway.

to me it is completely obvious for the streetcar to go down Main to 51. indeed i could see a further spur going down to 63rd or meyer along brookside, and even on down wornall to waldo.


^Agree and stop at 47th/Main increases foot traffic through Mill Creek fountain/park and is also a good spot to have a bikeshare station.

bobbyhawks
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:19 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby bobbyhawks » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:24 am

I know that it would add some distance, but I'd like to see the "UMKC" phase terminate at Brookside. 55th may make sense also if a phase 3 is in the plans. From Union Station along Main Street, the stops align almost perfectly if set every 4 blocks (by Street #). 27th, 31st (perhaps this one closer to Gates on Lindwood), Armour, 39th, 43rd, 47th, 51st, 55th. If going to Brookside, I'm not sure that there would need to be a stop at 59th. This route would be dead simple to understand, and the furthest walk along Main would always be two street numbers.

I'd also like to see a plan that reduces traffic at the 47th and Main intersection. A no right turn Southbound on Main (directed South of the tennis courts) could help. A no left turn Eastbound on 47th would be trickier (moving people to Gillham or to Ward Parkway and Main), but it would discourage some of the logjam that occurs. The 47th and Main to Plaza core walk would be one of if not the most heavily traversed, and some consideration would need to be given to move cars around the area. I think many would also agree that the flow from the Plaza to the Nelson could be improved.

flyingember
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 5971
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby flyingember » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:38 am

Alright, so I'm going to start with some back story on midtown for anyone who doesn't know it as it helps explain my idea.

KC was designed to move people quickly back and forth to downtown to people to the south. Look at how few major streets cross east to west without stopping in comparison to the number of parallel N-S routes. Gillham, Troost, Paseo, Main, Broadway, SW Trafficway all get from 47th to Downtown. Wyandotte intersects Penn Valley. Roanoke/Karnes loop in a N-S pattern and intersect SW Trafficway in two places.

The idea was to come out of the downtown jobs center go the distance quickly and then to move laterally to ones destination.

We see the same idea with I-35 vs I-70, The east west routes were very disruptive in terms of implementation whereas the N-S I-35 was much less so, it largely replaced an existing freeway south of downtown.

You can see the same in terms of the number of notable Kansas to Missouri paths. They're either historic paths like at Ward Parkway or disruptive cuts.

The streetcar needs to be looked as as a rapid N-S transit system much like MAX is. Few stops, prioritization and the like. Local bus service should continue to overlap for the regular stops and intersect the line for end point service.

All the other systems like bike share, one way to two way street conversions, public parking placement and the like all need to fit into this idea.

Really, in the end the question comes down to how do you keep with the spirit of midtown major streets being about through streets and have the streetcar function quickly so people want to use it. If it's as slow as the busses it will be a hard sell.

I personally see this segment being more like light rail in spirit with fewer stops, quicker speed or both.

At that point the question comes down to what sort of new traffic controls do you put in place to do this? Do you take a cue from SW Trafficway and force local traffic to major intersections? Do you do this on a smaller scale every other block? Does this street get cut down in size with full time parking? Does a lane get dedicated to the streetcar?

Things like combining the three intersections from 27th to Warwick into one seems like a must do. Giving a dedicated lane seems logical in that segment too. But south of 31st? You could come up with a dozen ideas alone.

Everything from moving it to SW Tfwy and making it be rapid transit (cut back over on the KCATA owned path) to cutting Main down to one lane like through downtown and forcing through traffic off of it onto Broadway, which is only 4 blocks over.

Really, it's less about stop placement and more what kind of Main St do we want?

flyingember
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 5971
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby flyingember » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:41 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
Eon Blue wrote:Somebody smarter than me would have to figure out how best to serve the Plaza with the streetcar while balancing travel time to UMKC.


tear down those stupid tennis courts and build retail and residential so that there's an actual reason for people to exist on 47th at main.


those tennis courts are a MAJOR urban service for kansas city residents. they're lighted for night usage and get the use.

I would never consider tearing them out.

User avatar
KCMax
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 24051
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: The basement of a Ross Dress for Less
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby KCMax » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:46 am

earthling wrote:
chrizow wrote:i think a streetcar stop at 47/Main is plenty close to the plaza. putting the stop one block over on broadway only makes the stop slightly closer to the plaza and isn't worth diverting the streetcar for it imo. people can walk a half block through a pleasant park area. destinations on the far west side of the plaza will seem far away, but i doubt highwoods would let the streetcar go through the middle of the plaza anyhow.

also keep in mind that Main is more proximate than Broadway to other destinations in midtown like home depot/costco, KCAI, and the art museums. it is one block farther from central westport, but i think that is okay - that area around westport/main and westport road east of broadway could use a shot in the arm anyway.

to me it is completely obvious for the streetcar to go down Main to 51. indeed i could see a further spur going down to 63rd or meyer along brookside, and even on down wornall to waldo.


^Agree and stop at 47th/Main increases foot traffic through Mill Creek fountain/park and is also a good spot to have a bikeshare station.


That's an outstanding idea.


I'd also like to see a plan that reduces traffic at the 47th and Main intersection. A no right turn Southbound on Main (directed South of the tennis courts) could help. A no left turn Eastbound on 47th would be trickier (moving people to Gillham or to Ward Parkway and Main), but it would discourage some of the logjam that occurs. The 47th and Main to Plaza core walk would be one of if not the most heavily traversed, and some consideration would need to be given to move cars around the area. I think many would also agree that the flow from the Plaza to the Nelson could be improved.


As is this. If I was Master of the Universe, I'd just plop a pedestrian plaza there south of Mill Park and force everyone that wants to go west from Main or JC Nichols to have to take Ward Parkway instead of cutting through the Plaza.

User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby beautyfromashes » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:50 am

How about we make a traffic circle where the tennis courts are? This would connect Main, Broadway, Brookside, ECII, Ward Parkway, Main south of BC, etc and might have a gentle enough turn for streetcars.
Last edited by beautyfromashes on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

flyingember
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 5971
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby flyingember » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:51 am

The Plaza is a hard one.

it's a pedestrian district.
It also has a US route running through it
it has lots of jobs but tons of parking. though all the same, it doesn't have enough parking for major events like the Plaza Art Fair, lighting ceremony, around Christmas
it has multiple major business towers and a ton of mid rise residential

interim, I'd think an east + west bike share setup would help with the plaza. one outside PF Changs, another near the theatre.


then next get Ward Parkway converted to two-way on both sides all the way to Roanoke and reroute US 56 fully onto it to cut the through traffic down 47th.

then for the streetcar put a one way loop on 47th, Belleview the north side of Ward Parkway to JC Nichols back to 47th. The plaza is long and skinny so having more E-W coverage puts more within a couple blocks.
Last edited by flyingember on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

flyingember
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 5971
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby flyingember » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:52 am

beautyfromashes wrote:How about we make a traffic circle where the tennis courts are? This would connect Main, Broadway, Brookside, ECII, Brush Creek, Main south of BC, etc.


I really don't get why people want to remove a notable and heavily used urban city park service.

to get to the tennis courts would actually be a reason to ride the streetcar, there's not much parking along the courts right now.


Return to “Kansas City Transportation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests