OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

[flyingember]

The default should be center running in it's own lane with full signal priority, block left turns mid block, add u-turns and the like until something makes that impossible to do.

Can still make it be local service with that setup with lots of stops, it just can travel between them with less interruptions

[earthling]

Keep in mind a center island platform also may serve both directions, so you potentially have even more people shared waiting for either direction. If curbside, you have people who can wait along a longer sidewalk on one side, and another set on other side of street, not a shared platform. Think 10-20+ years in future when hirises could be along this stretch as well.

If running curbside, there is a way for express buses to pass streetcar. If there are center running platforms taking space, more likely many sections with only one lane and harder for express buses to pass streetcar.

[flyingember]

Keep in mind a center island platform also may serve both directions, so you potentially have even more people shared waiting for either direction. If curbside, you have people who can wait along a longer sidewalk on one side, and another set on other side of street, not a shared platform. Think 10-20 years in future when hirises could be along this stretch as well.

If running curbside, there is a way for express buses to pass streetcar. If there are center running platforms taking space, more likely many sections with only one lane and harder for express buses to pass streetcar.

A shared platform can literally be the length of the street, spanning the entire block. Until we're running 450 person triple trains I don't think we're going to have issues with theoretical platform capacity in either case.

Remember that Main in midtown is 6 lanes wide today at it's skinniest and 7 lanes wide for part of it. taking three lanes for the train still leaves 3-4 lanes to work with

Nothing you have described is some special problem that requires curbside running.

[earthling]

In some sections it's not really 6 lanes.

[flyingember]

In some sections it's not really 6 lanes.

I looked at the expansion corridor in google satellite view from end to end

that's only true for one small section over Brush Creek where there's a lane worth of grassy median

[DaveKCMO]

take another look at how narrow midtown sidewalks are. if you build something like the crossroads segment through midtown you would have to do bump-out stations to accommodate any semblance of a crowd. that means you push cyclists into the next lane over and make on-street parking permanent (thus eliminating the bus lane).

i will grant you this: the decision on fares becomes more time-sensitive if you choose the center lane. you would then simply size the platforms for the expected ridership. as a reminder, the funding mechanism supports zero fare, it's just a matter of making the decision with a larger group of stakeholders.

the beauty of center is that you can mix with traffic now and if you find the will to dedicate the space later you can do it. dedicating space to the streetcar downtown would mean restricting vehicle traffic on main street and in the river market loop.

[earthling]

^Some good points. There will be challenges either way for sure. There might be fewer challenges if doing this down Broadway/Midtown given it (apparently) has less through traffic from downtown to Bside. And Broadway is already more conducive to enhancing the 'pedestrian scale quaintness' with center platforms. But it sounds too late for re-considering Broadway (and streetcar then zigzags much more).

No perfect scenario of course but clarify this... Would curbside still allow mostly 6 lanes while adding center platforms cut it down to 4 lanes or worse at times? If there weren't the high car traffic coming from both ends of extension that may not be an issue but the reality is, that will still exist. And would expect many more left turns would be prohibited.

[JBmidtown]

Once construction starts most people will start driving on Broadway or other N-S corridors. A battery center running stations will just shift thouroughfare traffic away from Main. As it should be.

Also: can we just look for philanthropic matching funding for the extension/future extensions? Would be a great way expediate the extension process.

[grovester]

I would not use the term philanthropic lest you be accused of stealing funds from more altruistic causes.

I can't see private investment coming close to the match. KC has no big hitters committed to urbanism.

[earthling]

So again if the intent is to make cars secondary through Midtown/Main then some redirection of cars on both ends may make sense. That is, take out the Grand curve to Main and redirect it to Gilham. And move Plaza Tennis Courts somewhere else and connect Bside Blvd to Broadway. That would provide a solution for auto traffic (that we can't ignore as much as we'd like to) and give streetcar line through Midtown a (mostly) pedestrian priority - a center running line then makes more sense.

We need a tunnel through midtown! Whether used for rail or autos.

[DaveKCMO]

I can't see private investment coming close to the match. KC has no big hitters committed to urbanism.

100% accurate.

[chingon]

I'm still not sure I see the advantage of fixating on an express bus service on Main, and I certainly don't see the need for one to share platforms with a streetcar, and if I did, that can be done fairly easily in a center configuration.

[earthling]

^Think long term, an express bus (or overflow) may eventually be needed and it is more convenient at same platform. If streetcars are down say for track repair, buses may be needed as backup. How does a standard bus pickup from center platform? Would think you'd need to have special buses with left door, not very practical to buy special buses.

[earthling]

Switching to a related topic... Dave, any indication yet if planning on fewer stops than MAX or about same/more stops through streetcar extension? It indicates whether targeting a local or commuter leaning service.

Would hope the authority gets feedback from those who live along line. As one who does, would prefer local leaning service with potential for express buses. Would think those who don't live along line would support commuter leaning but they aren't paying for this.

[beautyfromashes]

I think a lot of these decisions come down to personal perspective. Someone living DT would likely want the quickest path between there and the Plaza with one stop for Westport. So, they'd likely want it to be center lane. Everyone in Midtown is going to want more stops, closer to their homes for ease of access and increased development possibilities. So, they'd likely want stations right on the sidewalk. I think development should be the goal for the streetcar.

[earthling]

^Nicely put. The input should be considered by those who are paying for it, those who live along the extension.

[northlandnate]

^Nicely put. The input should be considered by those who are paying for it, those who live along the extension.

Agree that those who are paying and living along the line deserve the heaviest sway. It's a weird process with TDDs. If it wasn't up to locals, we wouldn't have any new rails in the pavement. And I'm beyond grateful for that hard work and for that accomplishment. But there are those of us from currently anti-rail voting areas that are nonetheless invested in this city's transit future and in the successful implementation of the MARC spine. (Please note I'm not implying intentional exclusion) If streetcar is going to be our top investment transit on the main spine, then the alignment that balances the functional needs of both commuter and local trips is helpful. I personally think it needs the flexibility that center lanes can provide if designed carefully.

[flyingember]

So again if the intent is to make cars secondary through Midtown/Main then some redirection of cars on both ends may make sense. That is, take out the Grand curve to Main and redirect it to Gilham. And move Plaza Tennis Courts somewhere else and connect Bside Blvd to Broadway. That would provide a solution for auto traffic (that we can't ignore as much as we'd like to) and give streetcar line through Midtown a (mostly) pedestrian priority - a center running line then makes more sense.

We need a tunnel through midtown! Whether used for rail or autos.

Brookside to Broadway already has good access via 47th, we don't need more pavement just to go one block over. it's already signaled too.

With less lanes on Main that area can be signaled to create a good S-pattern for through car traffic.

really, the better solution is to ignore Broadway as the major Main St alternative and do what works today, send cars via Ward Parkway to the pair of one-ways that become/come from Southwest Trafficway one direction and over to Troost and The Paseo on the other.

[beautyfromashes]

^ Please, no! First, 47th is a disaster, especially during Christmas. Impossible to turn and road is always clogged coming out of the Plaza. No way to get to right lane and then it blocks the intersection. Next, SW Trafficway is almost more of a mess. If you're going to cut Main in half, you have to give cars a place to go. That can be Broadway or Gillham or Troost. My personal preference is streetcar on the sidewalk and the elimination of parking on Main. It's already limited when you can park on the street.

[flyingember]

I figure the easiest thing is to do nothing around changes to other streets. Making it easier to use one road over the others just puts a crunch on that street. But if people can choose from five streets then all will get used.

None of the six N-S roads between 71 and the state line in midtown are anywhere near capacity except for maybe an hour each day.