OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

[KCMax]

The fact we are having this conversation is incredibly exciting.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Could note by color line rather than transit mode. That is, Orange is Main, Green is Troost, Blue is Broadway, Red or whatever for Indy Ave/NE Side. No matter the mode, you note which color line to take.

Just a question, don't you think it would be a little confusing for someone unfamiliar with the system?

I know that if I was in another city and was going to ride the "green line" and knew it was a part of the streetcar system, I would expect a streetcar. If I got to the stop and there weren't any tracks and only busses, I would definitely think I was in the wrong place. It wouldn't even be a matter of confusion, I would completely think I was at the wrong stop. If I think I'm in the wrong place, I'm not just getting on the bus and hoping it goes to the right place.

[earthling]

^I'm under the assumption MAX and streetcar would not be on same line, per..

Is not bad idea to use MAX for better express on Main but given tight funds and need for better service on other lines, doubling up on Main is a bit overkill. If no new funding for more MAX lines is in sight, move it to Bway. It needs consistent 10-15min service badly, especially for heart of Westport to downtown/plaza and Armour/Bway investments going on.

Also would give visitors more direct access to Westport, SW side, Uptown theatre and more city overall. My vote is move MAX Orange line to Broadway. Also place bikeshare stations at major crosstown drags on each line, like Linwood, 39th at Bway/Main.

MAX buses clearly show color line in front as do the shelters, with map. If there is no rail in front of shelter, cant be streetcar.

[DaveKCMO]

re: moving MAX, phase 2 funding would need to take that into account. prior discussions mentioned moving MAX to prospect if light rail were built, but there haven't been any discussions about what a streetcar would do. also, the county is now considering MAX on prospect as part of the US-71 corridor study.

the more realistic scenario would be to change one or the other within the corridor to compliment each other, as has already been suggested (make one with fewer stops, while the other stops frequently). this would merit serious study. my initial take is that you'd want to maximize development opportunities with the streetcar, so you'd make that stop frequently while MAX becomes truly express.

re: broadway... don't count on it. setting aside the (still very real) nutter issues, most of broadway is a boulevard and that would require the city and parks department to collaborate effectively on the streetcar. no thanks! there are no grades on main that can't be tackled by a modern streetcar.

perhaps eliminate main MAX entirely and use that money to boost regular local bus service on broadway and south of 51st. use of those special buses means they can't be swapped out with anything else if there's a shortage.

[earthling]

re: broadway... don't count on it. setting aside the (still very real) nutter issues, most of broadway is a boulevard and that would require the city and parks department to collaborate effectively on the streetcar. no thanks!

I could see streetcar would be tougher on Bway, but MAX shelters are not much different than others. If anything, better basic bus service is needed along that stretch. Getting to heart of Westport is a pain for visitors and downtowners too.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

^I'm under the assumption MAX and streetcar would not be on same line, per..

Is not bad idea to use MAX for better express on Main but given tight funds and need for better service on other lines, doubling up on Main is a bit overkill. If no new funding for more MAX lines is in sight, move it to Bway. It needs consistent 10-15min service badly, especially for heart of Westport to downtown/plaza and Armour/Bway investments going on.

Also would give visitors more direct access to Westport, SW side, Uptown theatre and more city overall. My vote is move MAX Orange line to Broadway. Also place bikeshare stations at major crosstown drags on each line, like Linwood, 39th at Bway/Main.

MAX buses clearly show color line in front as do the shelters, with map. If there is no rail in front of shelter, cant be streetcar.

Could note by color line rather than transit mode.

I just mean that if you're not specifying transit mode, it could get VERY confusing. If the red, orange and blue lines are streetcar. Why would somebody think that the green line might be a bus?

[smh]

I just mean that if you're not specifying transit mode, it could get VERY confusing. If the red, orange and blue lines are streetcar. Why would somebody think that the green line might be a bus?

I understand what you mean. I think you just include a little symbol next to the name of the line to indicate bus or streetcar. The map with the lines on it though would be designed to convey that each of the lines (streetcar or bus) operated at some certain level of frequency (i.e., 10-minute headways).

[flyingember]

The more realistic scenario would be to change one or the other within the corridor to compliment each other, as has already been suggested (make one with fewer stops, while the other stops frequently). this would merit serious study. my initial take is that you'd want to maximize development opportunities with the streetcar, so you'd make that stop frequently while MAX becomes truly express.

...

perhaps eliminate main MAX entirely and use that money to boost regular local bus service on broadway and south of 51st. use of those special buses means they can't be swapped out with anything else if there's a shortage.

I don't see any reason to have a streetcar in midtown that can't move people at least as fast as MAX does today.
at that point side by side through service is unnecessary.

And that leads to the question of how do you do an even more express bus service on main if the streetcar is slower? If it's a slow service I see the streetcar changing the dynamic so much that general traffic slows down.


Another idea is to take MAX all the way to SW Tfwy and just let it fly though.
The street designed for getting through midtown as quickly as possible is SW Trafficway after all. it could serve the west side of the plaza which is a rather dense residential area and goes by a number of office towers.

I'm one block from main and 2 blocks from broadway downtown. to get to the apple store it's always quicker to take I-35 to SW Tfwy, by a long shot. Main is just a slow street.

there's always the option of bumping it's frequency of Troost MAX with more busses too.

[flyingember]

I just mean that if you're not specifying transit mode, it could get VERY confusing. If the red, orange and blue lines are streetcar. Why would somebody think that the green line might be a bus?

I understand what you mean. I think you just include a little symbol next to the name of the line to indicate bus or streetcar. The map with the lines on it though would be designed to convey that each of the lines (streetcar or bus) operated at some certain level of frequency (i.e., 10-minute headways).

http://metrotransit.org/maps-schedules

look at the downtown view of this transit map. notice how the train line has a different look. specifically find the target field station (north end of the rail line)

it can be a shared stop label and one puts a logo on the label that means "paid transfer required to bus" or "free transfer point" or whatever is the case. and then have the stop in two color with bus and streetcar logos. it's more a design problem than a show stopping issue

[TheBigChuckbowski]

I just mean that if you're not specifying transit mode, it could get VERY confusing. If the red, orange and blue lines are streetcar. Why would somebody think that the green line might be a bus?

I understand what you mean. I think you just include a little symbol next to the name of the line to indicate bus or streetcar. The map with the lines on it though would be designed to convey that each of the lines (streetcar or bus) operated at some certain level of frequency (i.e., 10-minute headways).

Absolutely. I don't mean to imply you can't have colored bus lines and colored streetcar lines and that's probably exactly what I'd do.

But, it seemed like the original stated purpose wasn't to differentiate between the mode of transit at all. That's what I had a disagreement with.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Another idea is to take MAX all the way to SW Tfwy and just let it fly though.
The street designed for getting through midtown as quickly as possible is SW Trafficway after all. it could serve the west side of the plaza which is a rather dense residential area and goes by a number of office towers.

Best idea so far. Downtown, take SW Blvd to Broadway and eventually connect to 3rd & Grand.

[chaglang]

Could note by color line rather than transit mode. That is, Orange is Main, Green is Troost, Blue is Broadway, Red or whatever for Indy Ave/NE Side. No matter the mode, you note which color line to take.

Just a question, don't you think it would be a little confusing for someone unfamiliar with the system?

I know that if I was in another city and was going to ride the "green line" and knew it was a part of the streetcar system, I would expect a streetcar. If I got to the stop and there weren't any tracks and only busses, I would definitely think I was in the wrong place. It wouldn't even be a matter of confusion, I would completely think I was at the wrong stop. If I think I'm in the wrong place, I'm not just getting on the bus and hoping it goes to the right place.

In the early 2000s they tried to name a new BRT line in Boston the "Silver Line". They put it on the subway maps and confused everyone.

[flyingember]

In the early 2000s they tried to name a new BRT line in Boston the "Silver Line". They put it on the subway maps and confused everyone.

I've been in Boston. 2009. it wasn't confusing.
if you can't figure out that the silver line isn't a train...

and they didn't "try" to call it that. go look at the subway map
http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/

[grovester]

In the early 2000s they tried to name a new BRT line in Boston the "Silver Line". They put it on the subway maps and confused everyone.

I've been in Boston. 2009. it wasn't confusing.
if you can't figure out that the silver line isn't a train...

and they didn't "try" to call it that. go look at the subway map
http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/

Good to know it took less than 9 years to figure that out.

[flyingember]

I just mean that if you're not specifying transit mode, it could get VERY confusing. If the red, orange and blue lines are streetcar. Why would somebody think that the green line might be a bus?

I understand what you mean. I think you just include a little symbol next to the name of the line to indicate bus or streetcar. The map with the lines on it though would be designed to convey that each of the lines (streetcar or bus) operated at some certain level of frequency (i.e., 10-minute headways).

Absolutely. I don't mean to imply you can't have colored bus lines and colored streetcar lines and that's probably exactly what I'd do.

But, it seemed like the original stated purpose wasn't to differentiate between the mode of transit at all. That's what I had a disagreement with.

you have a valid point

maybe there's a middle ground to use the MAX name, which is a good one.

Main Street MAX Streetcar runs 3rd and Grand to 51st and Main
Main Street MAX Bus runs 51st and Main to *new end point*

[flyingember]

Ok, so I guess the fundemental question comes down to

is a midtown streetcar going to be an urban service line with frequent stops every two blocks
or is it going to be more rapid with selected stops?

maybe there's a middle ground between the two

Allow people only to get on at designated stops. the vehicle will not stop elsewhere for people waiting.
But let someone get off anywhere. someone pulls the virtual cord and it stops at the next intersection. and at that point, they could let someone on too.

mark the map to show this. like 31st to 47th would be "flexible service"

we could put in half the number of formal stops this way and still provide it neighborhood flexibility. this would help speed it up through midtown. because stopping for someone to get on is most of the slowdown. it's quicker to stop once and let 5 people get on than to stop 5 places. the same way, most the driver leeway is for the someone trying to beat the train leaving. someone getting off moves much quicker, they just have to get out the doors.

[chaglang]

In the early 2000s they tried to name a new BRT line in Boston the "Silver Line". They put it on the subway maps and confused everyone.

I've been in Boston. 2009. it wasn't confusing.
if you can't figure out that the silver line isn't a train...

What on that map indicates that the Silver Line is a bus? The map is labeled "Subway Map". The subway-subway and BRT-subway connections are represented the same way. All of the other bus routes are represented differently than the Silver Line, which is represented the same way the subway lines are. And nothing indicates that you have to leave the subway station to make the transfer- which in most (if not all) cases you do. That's a confusing map, IMHO. As a noted advocate of elaborate transit signage, surely you can appreciate that.

and they didn't "try" to call it that. go look at the subway map
http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/

Jesus. You are nails on the chalkboard sometimes. I know what they called the stupid thing; I lived there for 10 years. They tried (and apparently are still trying) lumping the new BRT line in with the trolley and subway lines and it people found it confusing because they weren't the same type of transit. Which gets us back to the original topic.

[flyingember]

What on that map indicates that the Silver Line is a bus? The map is labeled "Subway Map"

no, it's not. the map is labeled the rapid transit/key bus route map.

if you review the legend you learn exactly which colors are the subway, which are commuter rail, and using my powers of reasoning, I must assume the rest are not subway or commuter rail

if someone is confused it's because they didn't spend time to find out the system they were trying to used.

see the counter points that people made about not needing wayfinding signs in the commuter rail thread. it's the the same argument, that things need to be crazy specific with signage, names and such to make it stupid simple to figure out things. in the commuter rail thread you suggested people are smart enough to figure things out.

it sounds like being specific is winning the day. that naming, signage, terms, maps and stuff need to be very specific and very detail centered lest people get confused. that wayfinding systems are important as they tie into transit. (everything from station names to having bus maps are part of a wayfinding system)

at the end of the day that Boston don't show it as a bus line explicitly is their biggest failure, not what it's called

[chaglang]

What on that map indicates that the Silver Line is a bus? The map is labeled "Subway Map"

no, it's not. the map is labeled the rapid transit/key bus route map.

Sorry, the tab is clearly labeled "Subway Map".

if you review the legend you learn exactly which colors are the subway, which are commuter rail, and using my powers of reasoning, I must assume the rest are not subway or commuter rail

Sorry, look again. The Silver Line isn't labeled as anything. Every other mode is addressed by name. But it's represented in the same way as the subway is.

if someone is confused it's because they didn't spend time to find out the system they were trying to used.

That's an awesome attitude.

at the end of the day that Boston don't show it as a bus line explicitly is their biggest failure, not what it's called

The subway lines are named after colors. Busses are numbered. It's been that way for decades. The BRT is named after a color. That the maps and signage suck is just the icing on the cake. I'm glad you navigated the system with ease, but I can tell you from living there (and giving directions to lost tourists) that the name causes confusion.

[pash]

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