Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:17 pm

Not really. We didn’t have this detail (exact lanes) in 2012 for the downtown line.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:42 pm

And who makes the decision on stops, lane structure. Etc? The TDD elected board members?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:03 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:And who makes the decision on stops, lane structure. Etc? The TDD elected board members?
the public, using data from the current study. just like, um, always.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:22 pm

Like the DT TDD public chose side lane setup?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:50 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:Like the DT TDD public chose side lane setup?
The public being property owners along the line. Maintaining on street parking for them determined a lot.

geography another. Original plan didn’t go down Delaware for example, something about grade + turn radius as an issue led to the loop

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:52 am

some decisions are already made for engineering (embedded track), operations (use the same vehicle), or cost (no new structures) reasons. others are just already set (main street alignment, intersect with major bus routes, terminate at 51st & brookside). the choice for main street was set in 2014 by nextrail (and, thus, the city -- based on existing ridership data). the terminus at 51st and brookside was basically set in 2014 by UMKC (they consider that their "front door" and that terminus works with their campus master plan). KCATA has insisted on connections with major bus routes so we have the flexibility to move main MAX resources somewhere else if that's the decision.

the city didn't offer us the option of which lane to use downtown -- we were quite focused on main vs grand (and a brief study of wyandotte at DST's insistence). it was pre-determined to operate in mixed traffic and in whatever travel lane was closest to the curb. a handful of us non-city people have forced the "best lane analysis" for the main street extension to provide the public a chance to weigh in on such a critical design decision. you're welcome!

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:47 am

^ Thanks! This was very helpful. So, most all decisions seem already made except perhaps you wanting a center lane configuration and allowing for public input on that option. Most stops are already chosen due to bus connection but could be some slight adjustments of exact stop on on intersection (NE vs SE)? Number of cars are determined but will cars run the entire length and then turn around or will DT have extra cars that just do that loop and turn around at US?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:19 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:^ Thanks! This was very helpful. So, most all decisions seem already made except perhaps you wanting a center lane configuration and allowing for public input on that option. Most stops are already chosen due to bus connection but could be some slight adjustments of exact stop on on intersection (NE vs SE)? Number of cars are determined but will cars run the entire length and then turn around or will DT have extra cars that just do that loop and turn around at US?
there are definitely some stops that are set (but may shift north/south slightly to avoid conflicts): 31st, 39th, plaza, umkc.

up for debate (IMO -- not official!):

- the exact location of a "crown center south" stop
- whether we need every stop in the closely-spaced MAX midtown cluster (31st/armour/linwood*)
- do we need a 45th street stop? it not heavily used today.

every stop provides access, of course, but also slows travel time. it's a balance!

*if you eliminated a linwood stop, you could at a stop if we extend east on linwood just east of main after the streetcar turns to serve midtown marketplace.

all cars are planned to operate the full length of the line -- including riverfront, if constructed. nextrail had a lot of operational scenarios because of going east at both independence and linwood (those won't be precluded in the main street design).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by mykn » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:29 pm

DaveKCMO wrote: - whether we need every stop in the closely-spaced MAX midtown cluster (31st/armour/linwood*)
There absolutely needs to be a stop at either Linwood or Armour. Without one, the streetcar would almost completely bypass the entirety of the OHP neighborhood that it bisects. 31st Street is too far away to be useful for those of us living in the northern part of the neighborhood to use. Armour probably is the highest density area in this part of midtown, it needs its own stop.

A stop at 31st, Armour, 39th and the Plaza all seem pretty sensible to me.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:52 pm

that would be good stop spacing! let's see if we can find consensus with the public meeting coming in march.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by earthling » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:16 pm

What's the goal for expansion, to act as local service or commuter line? The downtown stretch is clearly local oriented service.

Ideally there would be an express bus with streetcar providing local service stops about same as MAX today, maybe one or two less stops, and then the express bus from Waldo to North Oak along streetcar line with fewer stops than streetcar. Even if express is not used at launch, the streetcar stop planning should consider an express bus in the future. And curbside stops (rather than center aisle) would make sense given express bus should be considered as a future option.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by horizons82 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:38 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:up for debate (IMO -- not official!):

- the exact location of a "crown center south" stop
- whether we need every stop in the closely-spaced MAX midtown cluster (31st/armour/linwood*)
- do we need a 45th street stop? it not heavily used today.
The leading contender for a CC stop has to be opposite Memorial Drive right?
earthling wrote:Ideally there would be an express bus with streetcar providing local service stops about same as MAX today, maybe one or two less stops, and then the express bus from Waldo to North Oak along streetcar line with fewer stops than streetcar. Even if express is not used at launch, the streetcar stop planning should consider an express bus in the future. And curbside stops (rather than center aisle) would make sense given express bus should be considered as a future option.
See I completely disagree. With the greater capacity of the streetcar, that should be your express service south of US, with smaller capacity busing providing your local service, if needed. The streetcar was already designed with an eye towards light-rail like capabilities, why not start employing them?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:42 pm

No new structure? Where we going to store 805-810? Seems you'd want some bail off spot either 31st'ish or 51st.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:58 pm

KCPowercat wrote:No new structure? Where we going to store 805-810? Seems you'd want some bail off spot either 31st'ish or 51st.
Current building was built to house all streetcars needed for the plaza extension.

Will there be a few switches along the route?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by wahoowa » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:20 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:*if you eliminated a linwood stop, you could at a stop if we extend east on linwood just east of main after the streetcar turns to serve midtown marketplace.
it's like my old family proverb says, the arc of the moral universe bends toward streetcar stops in front of gates :mrgreen:

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:54 pm

I don’t think changing the alignment of the streetcar from curb running to center running will speed up delivery to any large degree. The DT streetcar is slow because 1. We don’t have enough cars for the higher number of riders than anticipated. 2. Limited streetlight priority. I’ve never been on the streetcar where it hasn’t stopped at every stop. More cars would cause less stops and increase speed while keeping the streetcar focused on spurring development along the line.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by earthling » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:58 pm

^And curb running would make it easy to align with bus sharing same streetcar stops near or long term. You could buy left entrance buses but why acquire special buses, makes sense to use existing.
horizons82 wrote:
earthling wrote:Ideally there would be an express bus with streetcar providing local service stops about same as MAX today, maybe one or two less stops, and then the express bus from Waldo to North Oak along streetcar line with fewer stops than streetcar. Even if express is not used at launch, the streetcar stop planning should consider an express bus in the future. And curbside stops (rather than center aisle) would make sense given express bus should be considered as a future option.
See I completely disagree. With the greater capacity of the streetcar, that should be your express service south of US, with smaller capacity busing providing your local service, if needed. The streetcar was already designed with an eye towards light-rail like capabilities, why not start employing them?
For streetcar to be an express commuter line it should only be a few stops through Midtown to UMKC and I don't see that happening - if taxes go up, those along line will want a stop near them. But I could see streetcar cutting one or two stops from current MAX line (maybe Fed Reserve and/or 45th) and then a true express bus from Waldo to N Oak with say a stop near UMKC, two Midtown stops and a few downtown (shared with streetcar stops). My bet is there will be complaints if streetcar has less stops than current MAX, might get away cutting just one.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:24 pm

I'd say cut Linwood since it is so close to Armour and 31st, but I always see people at that stop. I assume because they are coming from an E-W connector? Do the N and S have to be at the same intersection? For example, N bound pickups at Linwood and Federal Reserve, S bound pickups at 31st and Armour? I'm sure that been studied for feasibility. If not, I'd probably cut Linwood and no need for both Federal Reserve and CC stops. Personal opinion.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:58 pm

It all depends on if center running can be dedicated and ban left turns across Main. Because getting it so the train has zero cars in front of it would make a difference. Imagine it going without stopping between ~27th and 31st and how quickly it could move. Adding 15 seconds for an extra stop and making it up with 15 seconds less on a segment is a decent trade off.

Shared lanes, not as much value center over edge running.

And I also can picture both in play. Center running and dedicated from Pershing to 31st with one stop makes sense and speeds up a good portion of the line. Can change lanes in an intersection easily to mix and match

I would fix one stupid decision too and realign 27th and Grand to both connect at Memorial Dr to reduce intersections by two, and put one common stop for the liberty memorial and the federal reserve fhat also serves the new south of crown center residents. Have to think long term here.

And N vs S stops three blocks apart? No thanks; too hard to deal with figuring out where to go. Remember the blocks are longer in midtown too.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by FangKC » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:54 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:I'd say cut Linwood since it is so close to Armour and 31st, but I always see people at that stop. I assume because they are coming from an E-W connector? Do the N and S have to be at the same intersection? For example, N bound pickups at Linwood and Federal Reserve, S bound pickups at 31st and Armour? I'm sure that been studied for feasibility. If not, I'd probably cut Linwood and no need for both Federal Reserve and CC stops. Personal opinion.
There need to be stops at major retail nodes (Costco/Home Depot). People are always complaining about lack of retail downtown, and that they have to leave downtown to shop. If the streetcar is extended to the Plaza, not having a streetcar stop at Linwood would hinder downtown residents ability to shop at Costco and Home Depot. Walking from Costco to Main is equivalent to four blocks already. There is a crosstown bus line on Armour, so there also needs to be a connection to the streetcar at that intersection. The fact that Armour and Linwood are about five long blocks apart should be not rule out having stops at both intersections. There are stops at shorter intervals inside the downtown loop.

Linwood is an existing retail node, so it needs to have a stop. If you don't believe me, carry six bags of groceries from Costco to 31st and Main, or Armour and Main. Any planner not putting a streetcar stop there is a moron. If one is not placed there, in the future riders will complain that there isn't one, and money will have to be spent to add one. It will be cheaper to add a stop when you are building the line, than to add one later after it's built.

If you don't make it easy for people to live downtown without a car, then they will keep their cars. After I moved here from New York City, I lived on Quality HIll for 2 1/2 years without a car. That was before Cosentino's was there. I grocery shopped at Sunfresh in Westport and took the bus, and carrying groceries for more than three blocks really, really sucks--especially in the winter when it's cold.

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