Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

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dnweava
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by dnweava » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:30 am

normalthings wrote:What an Urban Planner from Amsterdam has to say about our system and extension.
Good. But the layout of the proposed route is madness. So many lanes of striped asphalt. Utter waste.
Why not import some of the world's best practice and do center-running (grassy) transit lanes with floating transit stops. Then one or two car lanes per direction, no parking and add a bike lane and trees. It would transform the street from something that looks like a suburb to a more urban place where it's actually nice to walk along. Not like it hasn't been [done before]
Image

Oh that's right, that would cost some holy parking spots, on an important through-fare...
with the news of our extension being approved spreading around other urban forums online, I'm seeing a lot of people trashing our line on reddit and other international forums I follow... I guess we need to bend over backwards for a few people that want left hand turns and parking on a main street and build a poorly designed tram line because this is KC....

Some suggested we should have built more BRT instead of the streetcar, but they probably don't understand the stigma busses have in the US.

On the bright side, the Oklahoma City line design is more hated than ours...

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by KCPowercat » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:40 am

tower wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:Those things signal less congestion to me.... Not more
Ride sharing generates congestion because the cars are out driving around looking for rides or on the way to pick up a passenger. It also reduces transit use. https://qz.com/1103247/uber-and-lyft-se ... -not-walk/

At best, self drivng cars will have the same impact as ride sharing. At worst, the cars will be privately owned, and if they returned home after a drop off, and then back to the owner for a pick up, it would generate twice as much traffic.

All the talk about increased efficiency of road space with self driving cars assumes that at some point we will ban human driving. Until then, self driving cars will more or less just have to drive like humans. In fact, all current self driving car systems are just trained on human driving patterns, so the best they can do is to drive like a human driver, but without mistakes.
Interesting...thanks for the link.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:52 am

The easy answers for "build more BRT" are (a) we are and (b) we already did in this corridor... in 2005.

Of course, they'll respond: "No, REAL BRT!" But everyone knows that BRT creep is a thing and nearly every US BRT project gets watered down to "less than light rail" at some point because no one wants to spent $200 million on a bus. Even the one gold standard BRT line in the US (Cleveland) had it's signal priority disabled by the city. But, hey, they have level boarding!

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by earthling » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:29 am

Dear peeps/lurkers not convinced of streetcar's purpose or critical of design...

One major aspect many (including transit 'analysts') seem to not discuss much is the 'free to ride' nature of the streetcar without the inconvenient fare process to board. It makes the streetcar more like a seamless integrated horizontal elevator ride to various downtown districts - just walk on. Being free gets people checking out more areas of downtown, especially visitors - the speed and shared traffic is less noticed. And clearly KC's free streetcar is attracting higher ridership than fare based starters in other cities. A free bus circulator could do this too but wouldn't attract developers the way fixed rail can (and riders too), which is the only reason I support streetcar as an existing bus rider. Otherwise I'm all for BRT over streetcar as there is zero difference to me. Ideally BRT/MAX would be free to ride as well, using level boarding buses that 'feel' like a streetcar. To existing bus riders (especially monthly pass riders), getting from A to B is all that matters, not the mode or appearance.

But MAX didn't attract much development (due to MAX's existence), the streetcar has. The streetcar extension will certainly attract more development through Midtown as well. A free ride between Plaza/Downtown will obviously make a difference too.

Once the fixed rail spine through city corridor is in place, regular riders who typically wouldn't ride bus may start to experiment with it, especially any lines free to ride. Developers who want to avoid building garages/parking will follow where the heavier transit users want to live. That's one way a city starts to become more urbanized.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:32 pm

One interesting behavior worth noting: When we replace the streetcar with "streetcar link" buses, ridership plummets. Lots of ways to read that and we don't have actual data as to why, but just leaving it here to digest. The level of service is identical -- as is the route, except for the turnaround at Union Station. We are currently unable to provide real-time arrivals, but if we could I suspect the situation would improve only marginally.

The other mention about development around MAX is worth delving into because a study commissioned to determine that concluded that MainMAX had a positive, but ultimately negligible impact. Of course, MAX initially boosted ridership in the corridor by 40% and that most certainly had to do with the increased level of service and real-time arrival information (over the 56 it replaced).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by chingon » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:18 pm

dnweava wrote:
normalthings wrote:What an Urban Planner from Amsterdam has to say about our system and extension.
Good. But the layout of the proposed route is madness. So many lanes of striped asphalt. Utter waste.
Why not import some of the world's best practice and do center-running (grassy) transit lanes with floating transit stops. Then one or two car lanes per direction, no parking and add a bike lane and trees. It would transform the street from something that looks like a suburb to a more urban place where it's actually nice to walk along. Not like it hasn't been [done before]
Image

Oh that's right, that would cost some holy parking spots, on an important through-fare...
with the news of our extension being approved spreading around other urban forums online, I'm seeing a lot of people trashing our line on reddit and other international forums I follow... I guess we need to bend over backwards for a few people that want left hand turns and parking on a main street and build a poorly designed tram line because this is KC....

Some suggested we should have built more BRT instead of the streetcar, but they probably don't understand the stigma busses have in the US.

On the bright side, the Oklahoma City line design is more hated than ours...
Is this post a joke on purpose?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:42 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:One interesting behavior worth noting: When we replace the streetcar with "streetcar link" buses, ridership plummets. Lots of ways to read that and we don't have actual data as to why, but just leaving it here to digest. The level of service is identical -- as is the route, except for the turnaround at Union Station. We are currently unable to provide real-time arrivals, but if we could I suspect the situation would improve only marginally.
When the streetcar link busses run they put 10 or 11 busses into service? I haven't seen this service live yet but that's amazing.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:08 pm

flyingember wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:One interesting behavior worth noting: When we replace the streetcar with "streetcar link" buses, ridership plummets. Lots of ways to read that and we don't have actual data as to why, but just leaving it here to digest. The level of service is identical -- as is the route, except for the turnaround at Union Station. We are currently unable to provide real-time arrivals, but if we could I suspect the situation would improve only marginally.
When the streetcar link busses run they put 10 or 11 busses into service? I haven't seen this service live yet but that's amazing.
The frequency is the same (only three vehicles, but 10-15 minute headways).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:25 pm

That could explain the problem with link ridership. Three trains have ~3.5x the capacity of three busses.
Probably a lot of regulars that know the bus has less space and are less likely to even try to get on.

It's not a comparable test if the bus rider capacity doesn't equal the streetcar capacity.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:28 pm

flyingember wrote:It's not a comparable test if the bus rider capacity doesn't equal the streetcar capacity.
That's not possible. Even an articulated bus can't match the capacity of one CAF streetcar. Our region doesn't have a facility that can handle artics.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:36 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:
flyingember wrote:It's not a comparable test if the bus rider capacity doesn't equal the streetcar capacity.
That's not possible. Even an articulated bus can't match the capacity of one CAF streetcar. Our region doesn't have a facility that can handle artics.
I was more thinking in terms of having 10-11 busses but articulated busses can reach the equivalent of two of our streetcars. Not realistic for KC for sure but they do exist.

300 people on a bus that replaced a 270 person model
https://www.volvobuses.com/en-en/news/2 ... t-bus.html
You mentioned Artic which has two models that equal one streetcar based on this same page

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:42 pm

Must meet Buy America and have the investment in a facility to maintain such a large vehicle.

So just as you propose more vehicles you are adding frequency compared to streetcar, which also makes that comparison unfair (and would be operationally more expensive).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:55 pm

I agree. The problem is all we've learned nothing around behavior with the temp busses and won't be able to unless the vehicle is similar in size.


That ridership plumments when capacity plummets would be a given. What percent of people don't really understand when the streetcar isn't running would be my first question? What percent don't want to try and find a seat over sizing issues?

There's ways to adjust for capacity without buying extra large ones. And I agree it's stupid. You run three busses immediately behind one another all pulling into each stop together. Then the only real variable is the vehicle type.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by tower » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:09 pm

flyingember wrote:. You run three busses immediately behind one another all pulling into each stop together. Then the only real variable is the vehicle type.
Image

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by dnweava » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:38 pm

Now that it has officially passed, how soon do we order the streetcars from CAF? And what is the plan for the maintenance facility, will it be expanded or have additional overnight streetcar parking added?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:33 am

dnweava wrote:Now that it has officially passed, how soon do we order the streetcars from CAF? And what is the plan for the maintenance facility, will it be expanded or have additional overnight streetcar parking added?
first all the money needs to be identified and confirmed.

Then the city/authority begins negotiating to buy trains, getting the same ones from the same company isn’t a given.
Then the city approves this order
Then they can be ordered

in parallel the council needs to approve issuing bonds.

If the remaining money was allocated in the 2019 federal budget, probably could order trains in 2020 or 2021.

The maintenance facility details come in final engineering. That’s also something you do after having all the money unless the council decides to spend money out of the city budget to make the project shovel ready.

There’s no money to buy land so no one can go out and make offers on property to place a second facility, there’s no money to make surveys and spend the time to see how the existing could be expanded. All the efforts have been around track alignment. we would have seen detail around the facility had it been done.

But I do recall Dave saying that the plan is to use the current facility.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by Highlander » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:38 pm

flyingember wrote:
dnweava wrote:Now that it has officially passed, how soon do we order the streetcars from CAF? And what is the plan for the maintenance facility, will it be expanded or have additional overnight streetcar parking added?
first all the money needs to be identified and confirmed.

Then the city/authority begins negotiating to buy trains, getting the same ones from the same company isn’t a given.
Then the city approves this order
Then they can be ordered

in parallel the council needs to approve issuing bonds.

If the remaining money was allocated in the 2019 federal budget, probably could order trains in 2020 or 2021.

The maintenance facility details come in final engineering. That’s also something you do after having all the money unless the council decides to spend money out of the city budget to make the project shovel ready.

There’s no money to buy land so no one can go out and make offers on property to place a second facility, there’s no money to make surveys and spend the time to see how the existing could be expanded. All the efforts have been around track alignment. we would have seen detail around the facility had it been done.

But I do recall Dave saying that the plan is to use the current facility.
Any roadblocks? I realize there is the issue of federal funding but does anyone see local roadblocks? lawsuits? I read what DeJanes had to say in an interview and it sounded like they were resigned to this extension but would fight future extensions.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:24 pm

The current facility was constructed to handle 12 cars. We currently have 4, with 2 more in production. I believe that they expect to order 8 cars for the extension.(I think 10 sounds better tbh). Anyways I think the streetcar storage yard will need to be expanded to hold 14-16 cars instead of 12.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:46 pm

A local lawsuit (or appeal) is always a possibility. Other than that, just delays from the current administration.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:00 pm

http://www.kctv5.com/story/38547392/tru ... astructure
"We are anticipating our prices to increase because of the tariffs," said Donna Mandelbaum, communications director for the Kansas City Streetcar Authority.

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