Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Transportation topics in KC
flyingember
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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby flyingember » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:00 pm

One problem I I fell into is thinking too much in 2D.

How do the stop placements work in terms shapes centered on top of them? (I used diamonds for comparison simplicity, easy to show E-W the same as N-S)

Small diamonds
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1I9I5L ... sp=sharing
Larger diamonds
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1N9EBf ... sp=sharing

There's both Linwood and 31st St marked

Obviously this doesn't show the impact from any two ended stops that could shift distances, but I think it's a good proxy to show how moving things around works.

Of special note, this doesn't account for hills and how it impacts ridership. Something to think about.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby tower » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:52 pm

flyingember wrote:One problem I I fell into is thinking too much in 2D.

How do the stop placements work in terms shapes centered on top of them? (I used diamonds for comparison simplicity, easy to show E-W the same as N-S)

Small diamonds
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1I9I5L ... sp=sharing
Larger diamonds
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1N9EBf ... sp=sharing

There's both Linwood and 31st St marked

Obviously this doesn't show the impact from any two ended stops that could shift distances, but I think it's a good proxy to show how moving things around works.

Of special note, this doesn't account for hills and how it impacts ridership. Something to think about.


Great visualization. I live just outside of the large diamonds and I walk to or past the spot where my nearest stop would be often. I consider it to be a short distance.

Also, as a midtowner, I would rather have less stops than more. Pick 31st or Linwood, idc, but not both.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:49 am

ldai_phs wrote:If dedicated lanes down main are used, is it possible to just lay down some good old gravel and wood or concrete ties instead of poured concrete? I assume that gravel and ties will be used within the CCROW way.


It's hard to plow tie and ballast, so expect a concrete track slab. Whether that includes grass or not will be a budgetary decision.

Also on NPR, Gerend noted that lanes, stops, and fares are all up in the air at this point. He also noted that 39th street is the highest east-west bus route in the city. Hopefully, a route from the east side to KU Med on 39th is in our future.


Currently the 31 has higher ridership than the 39. I wouldn't expect any additional expansion beyond river-to-UMKC until there's a regional investment. The TDD model is tapped out (at least until there's a dramatic improvement in property values along these other corridors that could be captured to build/operate an expansion).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby mykn » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:37 am

I think I could get behind a stop half-way between Linwood and 31st. On my bus ride this morning I made sure to pay attention to where the stops are and it is pretty crazy that Union Hill is so far away from a stop. Honestly, the 27th Street stop could probably be moved up to the top of the hill and take care of the issue as well.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby WoodDraw » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:46 am

I think I'm coming around to Union Hill on this one after doing it this morning.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby smh » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:06 am

mykn wrote:I think I could get behind a stop half-way between Linwood and 31st. On my bus ride this morning I made sure to pay attention to where the stops are and it is pretty crazy that Union Hill is so far away from a stop. Honestly, the 27th Street stop could probably be moved up to the top of the hill and take care of the issue as well.


Keep in mind too that the 27th Street stop is designed to serve new development in Union Hill/Crown Center/Longfellow. In 5 years hopefully all those parking lots will be gone.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby mykn » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:11 am

smh wrote:
mykn wrote:I think I could get behind a stop half-way between Linwood and 31st. On my bus ride this morning I made sure to pay attention to where the stops are and it is pretty crazy that Union Hill is so far away from a stop. Honestly, the 27th Street stop could probably be moved up to the top of the hill and take care of the issue as well.


Keep in mind too that the 27th Street stop is designed to serve new development in Union Hill/Crown Center/Longfellow. In 5 years hopefully all those parking lots will be gone.


I get that, it just seems that it could be shifted to the top of the hill and could still accomplish the same purpose. Also, it's only going to help the East side of the street, the West side will never get development on it. I feel like it could help more people to put it at the top of the hill and then allow for better spacing throughout midtown.

Ultimately, I don't really care, we're getting a better city regardless of if I have to walk an extra block or not.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:52 am

Any technical reasons to have to stop at the top of a hill as opposed to a slope?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby cubsmike33 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:24 pm

flyingember wrote:One problem I I fell into is thinking too much in 2D.

How do the stop placements work in terms shapes centered on top of them? (I used diamonds for comparison simplicity, easy to show E-W the same as N-S)

Small diamonds
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1I9I5L ... sp=sharing
Larger diamonds
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1N9EBf ... sp=sharing

There's both Linwood and 31st St marked

Obviously this doesn't show the impact from any two ended stops that could shift distances, but I think it's a good proxy to show how moving things around works.

Of special note, this doesn't account for hills and how it impacts ridership. Something to think about.


Appreciate the effort I think these diamonds help demonstrate why Union Hil representatives are quite up in arms about paying a tax for a service that doesn't have a serviceable stop for them. Instead we get a stop near Costco, Home Depot, Conklin Fangman, Car Wash, and a Drive thru subway. All of these are not uses many street car riders will be riding for.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby cubsmike33 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:27 pm

smh wrote:
mykn wrote:I think I could get behind a stop half-way between Linwood and 31st. On my bus ride this morning I made sure to pay attention to where the stops are and it is pretty crazy that Union Hill is so far away from a stop. Honestly, the 27th Street stop could probably be moved up to the top of the hill and take care of the issue as well.


Keep in mind too that the 27th Street stop is designed to serve new development in Union Hill/Crown Center/Longfellow. In 5 years hopefully all those parking lots will be gone.


So just to be clear the folks who took the risk and invested serious money (look at union hill in 1980) shouldn't be rewarded with a useable streetcar stop that they will be paying for and instead the should find it acceptable to place a streetcar stop in the middle of a grass field on the hopes that future development will occur. I don't understand the logic in that, either move the stop to the top of hill (29th or 30th street) or eliminate the linwood stop and place the stop at 31st.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:00 pm

Keep submitting the feedback survey. Keep submitting the feedback survey. Keep submitting the feedback survey.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby moderne » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:23 pm

Don't forget his honor the mayor lives on Union Hill.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby smh » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:59 pm

Plz don't take the 27th street stop away. Thank you.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby smh » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:00 pm

cubsmike33 wrote:
smh wrote:
mykn wrote:I think I could get behind a stop half-way between Linwood and 31st. On my bus ride this morning I made sure to pay attention to where the stops are and it is pretty crazy that Union Hill is so far away from a stop. Honestly, the 27th Street stop could probably be moved up to the top of the hill and take care of the issue as well.


Keep in mind too that the 27th Street stop is designed to serve new development in Union Hill/Crown Center/Longfellow. In 5 years hopefully all those parking lots will be gone.


So just to be clear the folks who took the risk and invested serious money (look at union hill in 1980) shouldn't be rewarded with a useable streetcar stop that they will be paying for and instead the should find it acceptable to place a streetcar stop in the middle of a grass field on the hopes that future development will occur. I don't understand the logic in that, either move the stop to the top of hill (29th or 30th street) or eliminate the linwood stop and place the stop at 31st.



Respectfully cubsmike33, there are several hundred housing units under construction as we speak with more to come. It is hardly a grass field. It also connects with the northern portion of Union Hill and McGee which is the densest part of the neighborhood.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:51 pm

Mike- What kind of distances are we talking about here? Give me an example of how far you would have to walk with the currently planned stop. It seems all of the UH neighborhood is less than a mile, and that’s if you’re at the further end of the neighborhood on the farthest house from the stop.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby moderne » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:54 pm

From the Filling Station at McGee and Gillham it is a 20 minute walk to 27th & Main. To Linwood and Main it is 17.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby watcher64110 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:58 pm

The pedestrian experience matters when encouraging transit use. We do not walk "as the crow flies" direct to a destination.

The hill of course and street patterns limit where Union Hill residents can access any possible stops on Main. These access points include 30th (most desirable) or 31st at the top of the hill and one exit on Warwick down the hill. We do not have the benefit of a pleasant tree-covered residential side street option running parallel to Main (e.g. Baltimore or Walnut in Old Hyde Park, which residents can take to access the Armour stop) to reach the Linwood stop to make the journey more pleasant. To reach Linwood we would spend the entire time walking alongside busy traffic and auto-oriented hellscapes for most of the route only to arrive at the most auto-dependent intersection in the city! YUCK. I can guarantee the streetcar will be extremely unlikely to capture any potential Union Hill riders with a Linwood stop. I would love to ride transit more often but this would guarantee that never happens, and I've enthusiastically supported these rail transit efforts over the last few decades I have lived here.

But don't get me wrong, I support the efforts to improve the Linwood area (as challenging as that may prove to be) and the new developments near the 27th street stop. We need those to happen for sure! But moving the stops to serve those potential new areas at the expense of the existing populations in Union Hill (which took 30-40 years to establish) seems foolish.

Further, it plays into the anti-streetcar logic which claims that this project is only about developers and business money and not truly about providing service to neighborhoods. Union Hill currently has 2 MAX stops and we could potentially lose both, while paying to make it convenient for residents in adjacent areas who do not even exist yet! I don't like the SmartKC anti-streetcar mentality at all, but if the streetcar planners don't correct this problem for Union Hill, I may have to admit those nincumpoops may have a point!

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:16 pm

moderne wrote:From the Filling Station at McGee and Gillham it is a 20 minute walk to 27th & Main. To Linwood and Main it is 17.

Filling Station walk to 27th and Main stop is 13 minutes and .5 miles...the same distance and time as from there to 31st and Main.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby moderne » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:30 pm

Bull. I walked it at a brisk pace and timed it . Cannot be the same as to both 27th and 31st. To 31st is one block north and 6 blocks west. 27th is 3 blocks north and the same 6 blocks west. Maybe as the crow flies (if you could cut through the cemetery) but even that does not seem right.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:45 pm

Maps...McGee Trafficway diagonal to the stop. Plus, potential 31st stop would be up hill. If that was your walk everyday, you’d always walk down the hill to 27th.


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