OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

[flyingember]

Free bus service would do one thing well, it grows transit ridership and discourages people who can barely afford a car from wanting to buy one.

It's better economically for users, it's better economically for the city to keep money inside KC, it's better economically for the northland and east of KC to have people driving jobs demand way closer than Kansas

I would totally vote for a bus tax to make it free from any stop inside KCMO. I would benefit even indirectly, I'm really tired of 90% of jobs I'm qualified for requiring a doubling of my commute.

[mykn]

I would benefit even indirectly, I'm really tired of 90% of jobs I'm qualified for requiring a doubling of my commute.

Anything that could help encourage jobs near transit routes would be huge. I'm so sick of driving to the burbs every day.

[flyingember]

The new planning effort led by HDR includes determining whether the proposed extension should run down the center or side of Main Street; station stop locations; updated cost estimates, and initiating application for federal funding. It’s expected to last nine months.

Onto technical points.

Center vs edge running is a really good question.

I like edge because people get off right at the sidewalk for quick access to businesses right there. All people have to cross the street to use the train but many have to cross the street twice both times.

Center has one huge benefit, you can do dedicated lanes without making any parking lot owner upset. Can also combine stops so you build one stop for both directions at relevant locations. All people have to cross the street to use the train but less cross twice because two corners can get to the stop for both directions with a shared stop and all users cross less in total.

There's one thing I think should set the decision. If you keep the train on the inside of the street you can keep all parking on the outside. So many train parking problems today are at transition points from the shoulder stop where the lane shifts back inside to go around parking and someone decided to use the triangle of space to stop and crosses the line. Can't fit this problem entirely but it avoids the worst problems.

[DaveKCMO]

curb-running rail is not operationally unsustainable for long distances (parked cars, Ubers, delivery vehicles) and a nightmare for cyclists. main street's character is different south of the crossroads (where the union station stop was originally supposed to be in the center).

as for the "you have to cross the street" argument, that only holds true if you're headed in the same direction from one side of the street. if you're going north from union station now and you're on the east side of the street you have to cross the entire road. if it had been in the center you only have to cross half the road regardless of which direction you're traveling on the streetcar.

the only way to keep curb running south to UMKC efficient is to build a protected bike lane at the actual curb, protected by parking that's a minimum distance from the tracks and long right turn pockets at every intersection (which will cut into parking volume). like a better organized version of the crossroads segment now but with a protected bike lane. you'd also need to build a few crossovers ($$$$) to the system isn't hobbled by blockages.

[earthling]

Can't imagine that center of Main is even considered a possibility. The car traffic on Main through Midtown seems to be highest next to SW Tfway. Is the plan to try to push cars towards Gilham maybe? I just can't see trying to give Main through Midtown a road diet otherwise. Always thought Broadway would be better for streetcar through Midtown but if Main, needs to be along edge, not center. Odd that it's even considered, kind of nuts really.

[DaveKCMO]

Can't imagine that center of Main is even considered a possibility. The car traffic on Main through Midtown seems to be highest next to SW Tfway. Is the plan to try to push cars towards Gilham maybe? I just can't see trying to give Main through Midtown a road diet otherwise. Always thought Broadway would be better for streetcar through Midtown but if Main, needs to be along edge, not center. Odd that it's even considered, kind of nuts really.

center is 100% on the table. watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx539S9 ... ZdSjXud6AN

[beautyfromashes]

^ Seems that decision would be up to the Midtown TDD directors and voters, right? The only reason I see for center lane cars is to zip through Midtown more quickly. Personally, I think this is a negative for development in the district.

[DaveKCMO]

^ Seems that decision would be up to the Midtown TDD directors and voters, right? The only reason I see for center lane cars is to zip through Midtown more quickly. Personally, I think this is a negative for development in the district.

nope, the TDD board won't make direct technical decisions, they just oversee the funding mechanism. it will be up to the people who participate in public outreach (and the data*). that's how we made the alignment decision downtown (main vs grand, although center running was not provided as an option).

*the biggest determining data point will be utility locations. if all of the city's utilities are in the center, then that increases the project cost (third party utilities will be a lesser input). all other factors (ridership, station cost, track cost) are nearly a draw.

[earthling]

Another decision to be made... will Midtown stretch be targeted as commuter leaning (few stops) or local service (about same or more than MAX stops). Downtown stretch is clearly 'local' service as rail goes.

My two cents..
- Target Midtown streetcar as local service
- Use an express bus as commuter service along streetcar (doesn't have to be MAX branded) from Waldo to North Oak/Barry, just rush hours to start, sell to voters as a 'free spine'
- Target edge stops

Center stops are risky. What if you have dozens of people at a stop. And harder to do express bus overlay with center stops. Curious it's under consideration.

[beautyfromashes]

^ It's paid for by small group of people along Main. It should cater to them. So, local.

[DaveKCMO]

Center stops are risky. What if you have dozens of people at a stop. And harder to do express bus overlay with center stops. Curious it's under consideration.

you need to look at charlotte/DC streetcar (50% center) and many light rail lines. it's not rocket science. did you even watch the video?

[earthling]

Yeah, have watched the video and have seen it for light rail. Am not opposed to center stops overall. Center platforms work great in many situations (including 3rd/Grand stop) especially off-road but odd it is considered appropriate for Main St through Midtown, a high car traffic street probably not appropriate for a road diet as it is a fairly major link between Grand/Main downtown and Brookside Blvd. Am also hopeful for express bus at some point sharing streetcar stops and that's more difficult to do with center platforms.

And what happens if you have couple dozen+ at a stop with a high traffic street like Main? Easier/safer to manage along a sidewalk than center platform.

[JBmidtown]

Also to the millennial participation trophy comment: eat my shorts, old man.

I dont know why this made me laugh so hard. The kids are alright, after all, I guess.

[northlandnate]

I think the further you get outside of downtown and the longer the line gets, the more sense it makes to go center lane. Traffic enforcement decreases, and the chance for delay grows. I don't necessarily see it as a 'commuter' mentality, and I think it makes Main Street look so much less menacing when you're placing these substantial pedestrian island stations and crosswalks in the middle. In the River Market I love crossing at the North stop, it breaks up that frogger experience with a nice respite in between. You start to believe the street is actually a shared experience. Plus, no one is saying these islands have to be small as the RM North station, especially if it's handling two way traffic.

Imagine how much better it would be to cross from visiting the Nelson to the Plaza.

Regarding bus connections... crossing half the street to board on the curb really wouldn't be too bad. It would be commanding more space for mixed modes.

[JBmidtown]

I think the further you get outside of downtown and the longer the line gets, the more sense it makes to go center lane. Traffic enforcement decreases, and the chance for delay grows. I don't necessarily see it as a 'commuter' mentality, and I think it makes Main Street look so much less menacing when you're placing these substantial pedestrian island stations and crosswalks in the middle. In the River Market I love crossing at the North stop, it breaks up that frogger experience with a nice respite in between. You start to believe the street is actually a shared experience. Plus, no one is saying these islands have to be small as the RM North station, especially if it's handling two way traffic.

Imagine how much better it would be to cross from visiting the Nelson to the Plaza.

Regarding bus connections... crossing half the street to board on the curb really wouldn't be too bad. It would be commanding more space for mixed modes.

Hello and welcome and I completely agree.

[mykn]

I think the further you get outside of downtown and the longer the line gets, the more sense it makes to go center lane. Traffic enforcement decreases, and the chance for delay grows. I don't necessarily see it as a 'commuter' mentality, and I think it makes Main Street look so much less menacing when you're placing these substantial pedestrian island stations and crosswalks in the middle. In the River Market I love crossing at the North stop, it breaks up that frogger experience with a nice respite in between. You start to believe the street is actually a shared experience. Plus, no one is saying these islands have to be small as the RM North station, especially if it's handling two way traffic.

Imagine how much better it would be to cross from visiting the Nelson to the Plaza.

Regarding bus connections... crossing half the street to board on the curb really wouldn't be too bad. It would be commanding more space for mixed modes.

Hello and welcome and I completely agree.

Ditto. Center running has a lot of advantages in Midtown, much more than curb running.

[flyingember]

And let's say it's functionally infeasible to do center running the entire length, some segments it makes sense.

Like Pershing to 27th a center stop spanning 27th to Memorial could allow for safe short ped crossings to both Crown Center and Liberty Memorial on either end.
If it switches back to edge running after that point that wouldn't be the worst thing ever.

[earthling]

If the intent is to make Main through Midtown a quaint pedestrian stretch with cars as secondary, center running with island platforms could work. It may mean one lane of car traffic in many sections. But the reality is there are two key auto trafficways on either side, Grand/Main downtown dumping into Main/Midtown and Brookside Blvd dumping into Main.

Curb running has a lot more advantages in Midtown, much more than center running. Overflow or express buses can use same curb platforms (not center) and it's safer to have larger groups of people on curb than center platforms.

Would've rather seen Broadway through Midtown made as the quaint streetcar pedestrian scale stretch and leave Main/Midtown for car traffic as it flows more naturally between Bside and Grand/Main downtown.

[DaveKCMO]

there are buses that can use center platforms. that's about as likely as express bus service in the streetcar corridor.

i'm confused why you want to force streetcar into slow mode when you've complained about that exact issue.

[earthling]

Special buses though, right? Not practical.

If streetcar is a commuter line, then yes the faster the better. But I'm not optimistic streetcar will be effective as a commuter line through Midtown. Better to target it as local service (yes, slower) and add express buses, at least for rush hour to start with.