Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby Highlander » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:13 am

beautyfromashes wrote:No offense but over 12k people voted against it. That's more than a few curmudgeons. The Anti-everything group outplayed the Progress group on this one. Getting it reversed merely because we dislike it seems dishonest and anti democratic.

Personally, I think you set the vote and make sure the language is right and election is right. Make it say, "Can the Midtown TDD (boundaries) vote to tax themselves to expand the streetcar? No taxes will be collected outside the district for this project and no city funds will be used for its creation." I trust that if it is worded correctly and is clear and honest, it would pass. Of course, probably wouldn't hurt to buy off the East Side with free buses to ensure a win, self serving and all.


In a city of half million people. That's a few. Very few. That said, I think you are right with the way to word the ballot.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby beautyfromashes » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:34 am

^ True, relatively few who should have been easy to beat by another group of more than a few if mobilized properly and with better communication from our leaders.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby JBmidtown » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:31 am

So how much is this going to set back the Midtown streetcar extension?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby JBmidtown » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:55 am

Why can't we just use the petition intitiative to flood the city with endless elections that counter the anti-everything crowd? Why can't we muster the fucking will to counter this NIMBY bullshit by using their own tactics against them?

It's obvious there's a clear schism forming between two marginal but active factions when it comes to engineering the future of Kansas City. I refuse to believe 12k people should dictate the future of 500k Kansas Citians and an anchored metro of 2.2 million. They certainly shouldn't be allowed to use ordinances to dictate the momentum of disparate communities over 320 square miles. Overall, there's a fundamental flaw in trying to unify so many distinct and divergent interests in one municipality.

It may have some downside in losing some tax base for city funds, but I think it's worth considering trimming annexed land from city boundaries. The Northland and much of south KC will likely never want the infrastructure and progress the urban core is trying to build. The desire is here, within the historical boundaries (50-100 sq miles of the core) of Kansas City. I think it's time to reduce the connection to the deadweight sprawl that's hijacking the rest of the city. Now, I don't think we should eject the east side from the core as it's still very much a connected part of the city on many intimate levels that the Northland or south KC is not. Instead let's be more clear in communicating the benefits to transit/rail infrastructure to the east side and try to compromise and ally with them to fix transit in the core and trim the fat of the suburbs from our municipality for good. It's a radical move but it seems necessary at this point to protect our momentum.

This is an issue to take very seriously. We're talking about building a community with vibrancy and a high quality of life. We're talking about building a habit that imbues our lives with purpose and value. There are those who are entrenched in their lifestyle, their car-cradled insulation, who are so threatened with their bubble being popped that they would exploit a low-threshold petition system to ruin it for all of us. It's time to be strategic, to give a shit enough to find a way to counter them. This means doing whatever possible up to and including redrawing political boundaries to actually reflect the demand of smaller clusters of urban-minded communities.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby AllThingsKC » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:46 am

Are there other cities of about half a million people that have the same problem KC does? The most dense part of the city is also the most insignificant.

Usually, the most dense areas control the election results in that city or state. But that doesn't seem to be the case in either KC or Missouri.
beautyfromashes wrote:This thread is now worse than the Downtown Stadium/ Save our Stadiums thread. It makes me want to shoot myself in the head everytime I see it turn red. Congratulations ATKC, you now = kcdcchef.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby MidtownCat » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:26 am

Hahaha. What a fucking joke. But so typical Kansas City. Always a day late and 20 years behind progressive cities like Denver.

I knew we'd be looking at this starter line as the only rail in the city we will ever build in our lifetimes.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby KCPowercat » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:03 am

I don't disagree that might be the best move BFA but a couple things....

If it is truly illegal, it should be thrown out. They've thrown out petitions before for as small of things as bring unrealistic. So being illegal seems more than proper grounds for removing it. On top of that I don't buy the petitioners saying to just remove the fine portion. It stands or falls how the voters approved it IMO

The petition says a vote before expansion. Not a city wide vote. We had a vote for the southern tdd and will have another before construction. Dont those votes satisfy the requirement of the petition to allow the city officials to go forward in planning this specific initiative.?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby chingon » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:21 am

Jesus, take a breath kids. Opposition to transit projects is normal. Everywhere. They sue in San Francisco to stop BRT routes from being built for Christ's sake.

Sometimes I wonder if they're right about millennials and participation trophies after all...

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby kcjak » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:25 am

Can't the extension to UMKC get underway before this goes into effect? I mean we already voted through most of it before yesterday's vote.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby UrbanKC » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:35 am

chingon wrote:Jesus, take a breath kids. Opposition to transit projects is normal. Everywhere. They sue in San Francisco to stop BRT routes from being built for Christ's sake.

Sometimes I wonder if they're right about millennials and participation trophies after all...


I also think people forget about this:

http://kcur.org/post/heres-how-counties ... t#stream/0

It isn't that two factions are forming, as someone posited. It's that factions already exist.

Even in my dealings with folks on the Plaza, you've got these factions present, and it isn't just Republican vs. Democrat. It's how people think and what they value. Some like the city the way it is and don't want things to change. [Anecdote: In one meeting I attended, someone on the Plaza legitimately asked the Midtown-Plaza committee when they were going to stop approving projects because the Plaza is getting populous enough. Another complained they were having to walk to work because the traffic was getting too bad in their neighborhood.]

They like the perceived freedom and convenience of driving everywhere, and don't like the idea of having to share transit with other people. They also don't like the idea of having to walk around in our bipolar weather, they'd prefer to stay insulated in air conditioning and central heating as much as possible. To them, why should they pay for something they don't use, won't benefit from, and only causes further growth and change in a city that they like just the way it is? This applies to KCI as well.

A large number of people I've spoken with about KCI all don't support the city's plan because it will make the airport less convenient for them. They honestly don't care about bringing businesses or conventions to the city because it just causes more growth or less convenience for them. They like KC's "small town" feel, and don't want it to change. They look at cities like Denver, Portland and Seattle, and don't see cities that they like, either politically or in how they are built.

We've gotta start being honest, and I think the city and rail advocates (with Chastain being the exception because he's nuts, and doesn't live here) are honest, and that's why we have the TDD. They realize that the main people supporting and desiring the transit are in the city. Therefore they aren't making everyone else pay for it.

Yet you still have the pushback from the people who live in KCMO (and yes, even in the Downtown-Midtown region) pushing back because they don't want to see the city grow anymore.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby MidtownCat » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:59 am

UrbanKC wrote:
chingon wrote:Jesus, take a breath kids. Opposition to transit projects is normal. Everywhere. They sue in San Francisco to stop BRT routes from being built for Christ's sake.

Sometimes I wonder if they're right about millennials and participation trophies after all...


I also think people forget about this:

http://kcur.org/post/heres-how-counties ... t#stream/0

It isn't that two factions are forming, as someone posited. It's that factions already exist.

Even in my dealings with folks on the Plaza, you've got these factions present, and it isn't just Republican vs. Democrat. It's how people think and what they value. Some like the city the way it is and don't want things to change. [Anecdote: In one meeting I attended, someone on the Plaza legitimately asked the Midtown-Plaza committee when they were going to stop approving projects because the Plaza is getting populous enough. Another complained they were having to walk to work because the traffic was getting too bad in their neighborhood.]

They like the perceived freedom and convenience of driving everywhere, and don't like the idea of having to share transit with other people. They also don't like the idea of having to walk around in our bipolar weather, they'd prefer to stay insulated in air conditioning and central heating as much as possible. To them, why should they pay for something they don't use, won't benefit from, and only causes further growth and change in a city that they like just the way it is? This applies to KCI as well.

A large number of people I've spoken with about KCI all don't support the city's plan because it will make the airport less convenient for them. They honestly don't care about bringing businesses or conventions to the city because it just causes more growth or less convenience for them. They like KC's "small town" feel, and don't want it to change. They look at cities like Denver, Portland and Seattle, and don't see cities that they like, either politically or in how they are built.

We've gotta start being honest, and I think the city and rail advocates (with Chastain being the exception because he's nuts, and doesn't live here) are honest, and that's why we have the TDD. They realize that the main people supporting and desiring the transit are in the city. Therefore they aren't making everyone else pay for it.

Yet you still have the pushback from the people who live in KCMO (and yes, even in the Downtown-Midtown region) pushing back because they don't want to see the city grow anymore.


We're a city comprised mostly of small minded, uneducated country bumpkins with a lesser amount of progressive thinkers that want to position our city for the future with long term economic growth and competitive viability amongst the landscape of American cities. That is the reality and it isn't going to change. Our quest to complete a piddly light rail starter line and the opposition to replace a rotting airport are just the tip of the iceberg of this insidious mindset.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby WoodDraw » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:07 am

The city owns all of this. They've been incompetent for years at setting transit policy. I can't even believe that people endorsed CC's bullshit. Our city is so bad at setting long-term transportation policy that we let a crazy guy constantly do it for us? And then say, "Well this is better than nothing so I'm voting for it." ????????

The same thing will happen with the airport. All based off of pure incompetence, for something that shouldn't even be going to a vote. But here we are.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:09 am

Highlander wrote:I don't think people in KC are as much anti-rail as they are part of the "it does not benefit me, I'm not paying for it" crowd.


Voters in the KCMO community have approved issues that benefited KC as a whole but not themselves. Look at past approvals for bus and transportation sales taxes. For the community as a whole look at the passage of the sales tax for the zoo.

With regards to the recent rail/streetcar vote I think many see the streetcar as an antiquated form of transit, more expensive and limited than bus and/or car. And let's not forget the KCMO community as a whole did at one time vote for approval of a rail plan but that might have been because it promised so much for its very limited cost.

I think those who support a larger rail system need to do a better sales job to the rest of the city and change it's focus. Highlight the new development along and by the current line and how that new development benefits the city as a whole with regards to taxes and so forth. Push it more as a development tool, increase the tax base tool, something that benefits the city as a whole instead of a very limited area.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:40 am

WoodDraw wrote:I can't even believe that people endorsed CC's bullshit.


not apologizing. the thought was that it would drive new streetcar supporters to the polls that would also vote no on question 1 (the real threat). and maybe it did, we will never know. note that the endorsement was released the day after TDD voting ended. there were serious conversations about building something with that revenue and dealing with the legal implications as they arise.

our #1 goal was passing the TDD, which was successful by a large margin (and sucked up most of the opposition's cash). if a majority of the council and lawyers act as expected, the TDD and technical work continue without delay. thankfully, there is no northland majority on the council.

ultimately, this all goes back to how easy it is to put petition initiatives on the ballot. that must change.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby earthling » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:47 am

Dave, next steps for expansion? Game plan?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby TheBigChuckbowski » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:57 am

Someone needs to tell me I'm wrong because, after reading Q1 about 20 times, I don't think it actually does anything but prevent a city-led expansion effort.

Shall the City of Kansas City prohibit any and all City officers, agents and
employees from causing the planning for, construction, preparation for
construction, preparation of land, or purchase of land if connected to the
expansion of the streetcar system or any new fixed rail transit system,
without first gaining voter approval, and establish a penalty of up to
$1,000 a day for noncompliance?


First, the midtown TDD already has voter approval. There's nothing in this about a citywide vote.

Second, it says "causing the planning for..." which, to me, means that the city just can't start an initiative. KCRTA, the petitioners and voters "caused" the creation of the TDD and so there's nothing preventing city employees from planning for that extension. Even if there's a new expansion effort, if there's a petition to put it on a ballot, the city didn't "cause" that and, thus, are free to plan for that election and move forward on other steps to make that happen.

Why am I wrong?

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby DaveKCMO » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:03 am

earthling wrote:Dave, next steps for expansion? Game plan?


it's all up to the lawyers and courts. you will probably see some official statements soon from streetcar authority and KCATA on expansion planning activities (at least the southern extension, which has a funding mechanism now).

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby WSPanic » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:12 am

The reactions to a failed Chastain plan sure have..... evolved over the years.

Somehow people are looking to move out of town because KC can't follow a level-headed visionary like Clay Chastain? I have literally seen everything. Can't wait for people to start erecting Mark Funkhouser statues in 5 years.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby cityscape » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:16 am

While this is definitely a setback, after reading this and looking at past initiatives, I do not see the problem for phase 2. The taxing district is already approved (which is where this ballot question likely really applied). The next steps are voting to elect a board and then setting the taxing rate. Both of those will likely pass based on the overwhelming response of the TDD. If the ballot language is done properly, it puts all design efforts under the board of the TDD, which circumvents the city council. Sure, there may be some legal challenges, but I suspect that Q1 holds no water on the already created TDDs, it would potentially only prevent future ones.

In regards to Q1 actually passing, I agree that the city council and more importantly our Mayor, need to do a MUCH better job of communicating benefits of future endeavors. There is also a perceived issue of a lack of transparency that no one likes to see in their government. While I respect Sly's legal background and wanting to keep all legal discussions in closed sessions, he is not the attorney for the city and needs to act more like a mayor. Have the legal advice given in a closed session, but discuss what the closed session was about (not mentioning the specifics of the legal advice) and give your constituents a sense of comfort when it comes to the daily business of the city. If there was more trust in the city council to make the right decisions for the betterment of its citizens, these ballot initiatives would fail. But knowing that there have been a lot of closed sessions where major decisions have been made (Cordish arrangement, Power & Light bonds, etc...) that have had some perceived and real negative consequences will haunt the city council for a long time until they start to change their ways. If we're not careful, the next Funkhauser will be waiting in the wings to pause everything and limit the abilities of the City Manager and City Council.

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Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Postby earthling » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:22 am

So Dave, if the lawyers/courtes come through, will the UMKC expansion need another vote?
Last edited by earthling on Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.


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