New transportation technologies

Transportation topics in KC
earthling
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Re: New transportation technologies

Post by earthling » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:24 am

Elon Musk's 'disturbingly long' 2 mile tunnel in LA...
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech ... ng-tunnel/

Wonder what the cost is to create a 2 mile tunnel factoring KCs limestone. KC could use 1 or 2 between downtown/Plaza - one under SW Tfwy for auto traffic (minimize Tfway above into neighborhood traffic) and while too late for Main, maybe one day one under midtown/Broadway, essentially streetcar or tram subway.

flyingember
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Re: New transportation technologies

Post by flyingember » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:14 am

The 2nd Ave Subway tunneling in NYC was about $1 billion per mile. The three stations cost about $800 million each.
But a 2 mile tunnel wouldn't reach the plaza 4.7 miles away

NYC is notoriously expensive so maybe 75% that price?

downtown to plaza with 5 stops?
You're looking at about $6.5 billion for a subway from inside the loop to the plaza

The streetcar is estimated at $87 million per mile. So with that we could build ~74 miles of track. The 435 loop is 83 miles in comparison.

earthling
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Re: New transportation technologies

Post by earthling » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:21 am

It's 4.7mi from Plaza to River but just over 2mi to bottom of each end of midtown hill, which would make sense to enter/emerge from. The Boring Company is supposedly lower cost to tunnel than traditional tunnel making so wondered how much lower. And KC's limestone should be easier to deal with than NYC's granite.

flyingember
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Re: New transportation technologies

Post by flyingember » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:42 am

Apparently in NYC the stations (which are big admittedly) were over half the cost.

The total cost with trains and finishing and stuff is still in the billions.

earthling
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Re: New transportation technologies

Post by earthling » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:47 am

While this might not be very realistic, an auto/bus tunnel from Ward Parkway to downtown with no midtown exits might have a case at some point. A transit subway under Main or Broadway with just one underground stop in midtown (about Westport or 39th) would also cut costs.

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Re: New transportation technologies

Post by flyingember » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:50 am

Not building a tunnel and putting in 50 miles of rail at grade would also cut costs and produce a far greater impact.

Subways work where there's density to support the cost. Over 30 years a $3 billion subway needs to earn something like $125 million per year just to cover financing costs. There's nowhere in KC that could fund this but the same thing across 50 miles of the city has a better chance.

earthling
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Re: New transportation technologies

Post by earthling » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:58 am

You're using traditional estimating, not factoring what I mentioned but do agree KC likely does not have the density to support subway anyway - I was thinking 'eventually'. Though would be interesting to see cost of a basic auto/bus tunnel (Boring Company estimate) under SW Tfway with no midtown exits. Maintaining the structural integrity of tunnel long term though could be significant.

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Re: New transportation technologies

Post by phuqueue » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:19 pm

Serious question: are the Boring Company's costs actually lower, and do we understand how they managed that? Or are we just taking Elon Musk's word for it? This is the same guy who claims his unproven hyperloop that requires a sealed tunnel built along an elevated ROW is way cheaper than traditional HSR so I'm just wondering if claims of lower cost for TBC have actually been substantiated by anybody.

For what it's worth, I remember reading, probably on the transit blog Second Avenue Sagas, that the actual tunneling costs for the SAS were only about $300M. The Wiki page for the line also says the tunneling contract for 92nd to 63rd St was $337M (but I'd assume, knowing the MTA, that there were cost overruns, and I don't know what they amounted to). That's about 1.5 miles, so you're looking at about $225M/mile at the contract price. As mentioned above, the stations were absurdly expensive, but the tunneling was a comparative bargain. (Wiki does mention an additional contract, $431M, to dig tunnels connecting the 72 St Station to the existing 63rd and Lex station, which is about $60k/foot or $316M/mile, but that includes a curve and a connection to an existing station already in revenue service, which I assume drive up costs.)

But KC would be better served prioritizing streetcar traffic, even if it disrupts private car traffic, rather than building a subway to keep transit out of drivers' way. But I do realize that presenting voters with the option of streetcar and worse drive or no streetcar and same drive is the best way to get the streetcar killed, unfortunately.

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Re: New transportation technologies

Post by WSPanic » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:50 pm

Can't we just do HyperLoop from River Market to Waldo? It would take like 7 seconds.


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