Jackson County Regional Rail Plan

[bbqboy]

Light Rail, and East West Light Rail, got me me excited enough to sign on to the forum.
Just wanted you to know People were thinking of Development and KCMO and Jackson County, from time to time,  and not just the Jayhawks.

[Highlander]

Article in KC Star today about commuter rail in KC area (I-70 and I-35).  The article is mostly negative with the implication that it will not work in KC and buses would be better.  They bring up several issues but the three main issues were: 1) not enough potential ridership to compete for federal funds 2) the area served by freight tracks is not dense enough to support commuter rail and 3) redistribution of riders needed once they arrive in the urban core.  Because eastern Jackson County commuters would be coming into the River Market area, there is no way to redistribute them to their destinations.

I was really disappointed by the tone of the article and the leaders that were interviewed.  First of all, train ridership would almost certainly be higher than bus ridership which relies on the same crowded highways that commuters are trying to escape.  Second, commuter rail does not rely on density to work.  In fact, the lack of density makes it ideal for park and ride options.  Many train stations in outlying communities in Europe have large parking lots for that very purpose.  Third, nearly all the Light Rail plans I have seen would traverse a portion of the River Market providing a way to get people from the detraining point to downtown, CC or even the Plaza. 

http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/135111.html

[GRID]

I just don't get the push for commuter rail in this town.  It simply does not make sense.  I'm a huge transit advocate but I'm sorry, commuter rail simply will not work in KC.

The place where it "could" work the best does not have the track in place to make it work.  In order for rail to work along I-70 to the eastern burbs, you would have to build a new track.  The line everybody keeps talking about is ridiculous.  Hardly any of it goes through high density residential or commercial development and it deviates so far off course that there is no way it could be an efficient route.  People are just going to drive.  Ever taken Amtrak from Lee's Summit to Downtown?  Even though there is now a flyover in the east bottoms, it's still very slow through there and amtraks get delayed down there.  Well the route to the river market is even worse.  Congestion is high and speeds are very low. You would have to build some major bypasses to get around the freight traffic.  Why?  By the time you drive to a rail park & ride in Blue Springs, hop a train to downtown, connect to another mode of transit, you are looking at a best case scenario of 45 minutes to over an hour.  That's if the train is on time, doesn't get delayed in the bottoms or riverfront etc.  then you still have to somehow get to river crown plaza destinations.  Even under the best scenario of having a light rail train waiting for you when you get off a commuter train, that's another 10-15 or 20 minutes.  But chances are, there will not be a light rail train waiting there.  Trains also take longer to board.  If you have a train that leaves at 6:30, you need to allow more time than if you are catching a commuter bus.  Plus buses run more frequently if you miss one.

Fix I-70 and improve bus transit in this town.  Build some decent commuter lots, buy some commuter coaches.  Build HOV or shoulder bus lanes.

If rail is a must, build light rail so that it could double as as commuter rail and local rail.  That is why the StL light rail is such a success.

Commuter rail in KC will do nothing for traffic, nothing for economic development, nothing to move people around except peak hour outer suburb to downtown commutes.

Light rail from Downtown to Blue Springs would cost a lot more sure, but it would move 30k a day vs 1k.  It would create redevelopment all along the route.  Commuter rails only create parking lots.  Only in very large cities like Chicago and NYC where commuter rails run all day long and move hundreds of thousands of people a day will you see high density development around commuter lines and even in those places, economic development is limited and you have sprawl and parking lots at the ends of many lines.

Light rail could serve the arenas, stadiums, etc as well.

Basically, KC needs to get off its rail kick, unless they plan on doing it right.  It would cost hundreds of millions to build commuter rails in KC to move 500-1500 people per line.  It makes absolutely no sense.

Just like it makes absolutely no since to build a full blown light rail line down down city streets for the entire length of the line.

Light rail running from Barry Road to the Downtown on North Oak the entire time?  Slow as a bus.  It will take forever.

[bahua]

The only way I can see to make rail useful in KC is to get it off the street. Otherwise, just put more money into buses.

[KCMax]

I don't know if commuter rail can or cannot work, but I think the idea of using commuter buses, even if they are given their own lane, would be a complete waste of money, at least in Johnson County.

[kcmetro]

Kansas Citians should be happy commuter rail and LRT aren't necessary at this point. People act like there's a traffic crisis in the metro. We should consider ourselves lucky not to have the kind of congestion many other cities have.

I agree with Grid. Why build commuter rail when it won't be worth it? Make an improved and efficient freeway system utilizing HOV lanes and SCOUT to their fullest potential, and then address commuter rail when the burbs add another 500k.

[DaveKCMO]

Why build commuter rail when it won't be worth it? Make an improved and efficient freeway system utilizing HOV lanes and SCOUT to their fullest potential, and then address commuter rail when the burbs add another 500k.

what's "worth it"? highways? you could actually spend the same amount of money (or less) money on something that might spur TOD, which would improve the density of the areas that are generating all of the auto traffic.

and if the JO wanted to run an express bus, they could do it right now (all it takes is a bus!). this whole bus thing is just a way to shill for money from uncle sam's teat and a veiled attempt to sedate transit advocates.

[kcmetro]

what's "worth it"? highways? you could actually spend the same amount of money (or less) money on something that might spur TOD, which would improve the density of the areas that are generating all of the auto traffic.

and if the JO wanted to run an express bus, they could do it right now (all it takes is a bus!). this whole bus thing is just a way to shill for money from uncle sam's teat and a veiled attempt to sedate transit advocates.

I'm not sure how TOD would work with commuter rail. I think we need to get the LRT line up and runing and put in place policies that promote private investment in TOD. But when I think of commuter rail, I think of one big station in the burbs that is a non-stop trip to the CBD....sort of an express route. I don't know that TOD and stations along a commuter rail line would make sense.

[DaveKCMO]

I'm not sure how TOD would work with commuter rail. I think we need to get the LRT line up and runing and put in place policies that promote private investment in TOD. But when I think of commuter rail, I think of one big station in the burbs that is a non-stop trip to the CBD....sort of an express route. I don't know that TOD and stations along a commuter rail line would make sense.

there's absolutely no reason why we can't do both. it's like people around here can't handle more than one project or we've got one hand tied behind our back! attempting commuter rail before the light rail system is complete is incredibly low risk and very doable. some very recent examples of commuter-rail-only cities are albuquerque, nashville, and austin.

if you need to look at how TOD can be spurred by simple diesel or electric commuter rail, look at established systems in chicago (metra), LA (metrorail), san diego (coaster), and seattle (sounder).

[advocrat]

Make an improved and efficient freeway system utilizing HOV lanes and SCOUT to their fullest potential, and then address commuter rail when the burbs add another 500k.

But that costs billions-where are we going to get that, if we can't come up with 1 billion for light rail? Do you think our great highways will always be so? Been on K-10 at rush hour, or over by I-35 and I-435 at 4:45 pm. It costs $3.19 to go one mile, maybe $3.15 if you turn off your air conditioner.

[kcmetro]

But that costs billions-where are we going to get that, if we can't come up with 1 billion for light rail? Do you think our great highways will always be so? Been on K-10 at rush hour, or over by I-35 and I-435 at 4:45 pm. It costs $3.19 to go one mile, maybe $3.15 if you turn off your air conditioner.

Not quite.

It's the commuter rail that would interfere with federal funds for LRT, not the highways. That's the big problem with this country...it's set up to make it easier to get highway dollars than it is to get money for new LRT and commuter rail lines. It's just so much cheaper to add highway lanes and install ITS like SCOUT than it is to build a new rail line. If KC tries to focus on the commuter line to the suburbs right now, you can kiss the LRT line goodbye, along with any bus service we had before. 

I just think that's getting way ahead of ourselves if we don't get the initial LRT up and running first. Then focus on commuter lines.

[advocrat]

Not quite.

It's the commuter rail that would interfere with federal funds for LRT, not the highways. That's the big problem with this country...it's set up to make it easier to get highway dollars than it is to get money for new LRT and commuter rail lines. It's just so much cheaper to add highway lanes and install ITS like SCOUT than it is to build a new rail line. If KC tries to focus on the commuter line to the suburbs right now, you can kiss the LRT line goodbye, along with any bus service we had before. 

I just think that's getting way ahead of ourselves if we don't get the initial LRT up and running first. Then focus on commuter lines.

I agree completely with your last sentence, as does the official (Erdman) from the Kansas city Southern Railroad. Look at the video link from Ed Ford's planning meeting.  His idea and recommendation was that KC consider the future of transit, with expanded services that include commuter rail. As planning proceeds for light rail, the critical thing is this: plan the route so that it can connect, and, avoid a route that negates future interconnectivity. To to this there should be ground level connections in the River Market and at some location in Kansas City terminal (Union Station). Within the terminal there is still easement on the north side (near Crossroads.)

[Belle the dog]

Commuter rail will make sense at some point though only when services are properly coordinated.  Just putting on commuter trains won't solve much.  When schedules are fully integrated then the investment will be far more productive than building highways.  The key here is to meet rush hour demand.  Building highways to meet rush hour demand is incredibly costly both to build and then to maintain. 

One of the routes frequently overlooked is the potential of using the former CRI&P RR via Leeds (near the former Chevy plant) thence to the Truman Sports Complex and from there on east. 

[GRID]

I have a spreadsheet when this was studied a while back (2001-2002ish) and this was the results:

Studied commuter routes with end destination, daily boardings by 2020 and cost per rider ranked by “high” “medium” and “no-build”

HIGH

Odessa (4,160 daily riders) $3.32 40 miles 62 minutes
Warrensburg (3,800 daily riders) $6.01 65 miles 92 minutes

Medium

Topeka (2,770 daily riders) $4.84 64 miles 86 minutes
Olathe  (2,600 daily riders) $6.21 23 miles 40 minutes

No-Build (revisit in future)

Belton (1,250 daily riders) $4.78 29 miles 48 minutes
Excelsior Springs (930 daily riders) $6.41 29 miles 50 minutes
St Joseph (720 daily riders) $18.34 63 miles 83 minutes
Richmond (80 daily riders) $104.72 40 miles 56 minutes

[DaveKCMO]

pretty sure gas was under $2 when that study was done. 

[GRID]

pretty sure gas was under $2 when that study was done. 

Dave, those are very high numbers for commuter rail, especially for a city the size of KC and with our traffic congestion.  I would say they were a bit ambitious at the time of the study but may be right on now or even a tad low.  If that Odessa line did garner 4200 riders, it would be one of the more successful commuter lines in the country outside the very large mega metros.

I also think these numbers would depend on what kind of transit is on the Union Station end.  If people can catch light rail to the RCP corridor  and keep that connect under 10 minutes, these numbers could go even higher.

Having said that, I still think light rail would be the way to go out east possibly in addition to commuter rail.  A light rail line to Blue Springs would easily generate 30-40,000 riders a day, or nearly 80% of the current ATA ridership and create all sorts of economic benefits in return.

[dangerboy]

I also think these numbers would depend on what kind of transit is on the Union Station end.  If people can catch light rail to the RCP corridor  and keep that connect under 10 minutes, these numbers could go even higher.

Except MARC has since ruled out Union Station as the terminus for the eastern routes. Rail congestion and poor development in and around the station have left little room for commuter rail.  MARC is now assuming any eastern commuter rail will terminate in a new station at the 3rd and Grand MAX stop.

[GRID]

Except MARC has since ruled out Union Station as the terminus for the eastern routes. Rail congestion and poor development in and around the station have left little room for commuter rail.  MARC is now assuming any eastern commuter rail will terminate in a new station at the 3rd and Grand MAX stop.

Same deal though, if there is a LRT waiting at 3rd and Grand...

[DaveKCMO]

chicago has four commuter rail terminii in the center city. NYC has two, boston has two, baltimore has two. not that it's a good thing, but it's no deal-breaker.

[DaveKCMO]

Commuter rail could be reality for EJC

The system could be running in about two years. Half a dozen lines would lead to Union Station in Kansas City, and three of those would be in Eastern Jackson County. The Kansas City Southern line that runs through Oak Grove, Grain Valley, Blue Springs and Independence would be one line. A second, shorter line in Independence, using a Union Pacific spur that runs south of the Square, would tie into the Kansas City Southern line near Crysler Stadium. There are also lines to Lee?s Summit, Grandview, the Legends and Kansas Speedway, Kansas City International Airport, and to Liberty and Kearney.