No More One-Way Streets in Downtown...

[flyingember]

Also, learn that three rights is the same as a left.

no, no it's not. you actually end up a block behind where you started at best case. in some places at the third turn you're really far away (imaging trying to turn left from NB Broadway onto 9th St and instead turning right, the third turn happens at 9th/Wyandotte, 3 blocks away)

[shinatoo]

Also, learn that three rights is the same as a left.

no, no it's not. you actually end up a block behind where you started at best case. in some places at the third turn you're really far away (imaging trying to turn left from NB Broadway onto 9th St and instead turning right, the third turn happens at 9th/Wyandotte, 3 blocks away)

So what are you saying? It's better to create a traffic snarl than to drive a few blocks out of your way?

[flyingember]

Also, learn that three rights is the same as a left.

no, no it's not. you actually end up a block behind where you started at best case. in some places at the third turn you're really far away (imaging trying to turn left from NB Broadway onto 9th St and instead turning right, the third turn happens at 9th/Wyandotte, 3 blocks away)

So what are you saying? It's better to create a traffic snarl than to drive a few blocks out of your way?

Why do you think the two things are indepent items? I can think of places where one left turn impacts way less than making three rights. For the places it is even possible

[Gretz]

Welp, spent about an hour trying to get to the bottom of which is safer and it looks like there are some good studies showing that one ways are MUCH safer in terms of accident rates for both vehicles and pedestrians, but that these studies are all pretty old, from the 70s and 80s. On the other hand there are a bunch of people claiming that two ways are safer because of reduced speeds (both sides agreeing that speeds are higher on one-ways) but citing no studies about accident rates or at most a couple of very limited data points, seemingly taking it as an article of faith that lower speeds = safer. If anyone can speak with any authority on the subject I'd be happy to hear it, but it looks like from what I can see in my very limited research that one-ways are safer, likely by a lot. Even if the higher-speeds result in more serious injuries in accidents, the accident rates are so much lower that they would seem to more than offset this. If that's true the pro two-way arguments look really weak to me. Making it slower to get places and less safe to avoid confusion on the part of tourists, remove the need to go around the block once in a while to get to your destination and some nebulous claims that it adds a little visibility for some retail? Really not sure I buy that last one...wouldn't cars be driving by MORE retail establishments with the slightly longer trip lengths and around-the-block trips of a one-way grid than with a two way? Weak. My biggest beef, really, with single lanes is as a cyclist, I guess. I really hate having motorists up my ass and trying to "squeeze" into a single lane with me. Get me some dedicated bike lanes and I'll shut up.

Happy to have this very cursory conclusion about one-way vs two-way safety proven wrong if someone has some real data backing up the opposing viewpoint and not just vaguely plausible arguments with no evidence which is what i seem to be seeing in my web-browsing.

[flyingember]

as a pedestrian you want to minimize the number of turns cars have to make, as they're the place most likely a driver will hit someone. why do I say this? because most places downtown turning cars are crossing the same place pedestrians have rights to cross at. whereas people are supposed to wait for the pedestrian signal to change and not cross perpendicular to traffic

a bicycle would benefit from this same lowering of turns because the low visibility means a car could turn into one easier than another car

so for that case, less double backs are safer. making the more direct you can take someone from A to B the better. you want cars to stay pass parallel, not be making tons of turns in front of you where they don't see you

[shinatoo]

no, no it's not. you actually end up a block behind where you started at best case. in some places at the third turn you're really far away (imaging trying to turn left from NB Broadway onto 9th St and instead turning right, the third turn happens at 9th/Wyandotte, 3 blocks away)

So what are you saying? It's better to create a traffic snarl than to drive a few blocks out of your way?

Why do you think the two things are indepent items? I can think of places where one left turn impacts way less than making three rights. For the places it is even possible

As usual you are being pedantic. Obviously, if the traffic is clear and you can easily make a left you absolutely should. I'm talking about high traffic times where a left would obviously jam up the system. I'm talking about being a considerate human and not about making some kind of no left turn law.

[Gretz]

as a pedestrian you want to minimize the number of turns cars have to make, as they're the place most likely a driver will hit someone. why do I say this? because most places downtown turning cars are crossing the same place pedestrians have rights to cross at. whereas people are supposed to wait for the pedestrian signal to change and not cross perpendicular to traffic

a bicycle would benefit from this same lowering of turns because the low visibility means a car could turn into one easier than another car

so for that case, less double backs are safer. making the more direct you can take someone from A to B the better. you want cars to stay pass parallel, not be making tons of turns in front of you where they don't see you

Reducing turns is good, of course, but the kinds of turns people are undertaking are important too. In two way traffic, particularly on true green, people taking left turns have tend to focus their attention on the oncoming traffic while looking for a gap in the traffic and then hit pedestrians that have entered the intersection while the motorists attention was focused on the oncoming lanes. This is why left-turn ped collisions are more common than right-turn situations. In one-way situations, one makes the turn immediately, whether right or left, doesn't have to check oncoming traffic and one's undivided attention can be given to the only possible obstacle that one will encounter, pedestrians in the crosswalk. Perhaps more significantly, any given intersection in a one-way grid only has one possible turn direction for motorists so on true green there is only conflict between cars and peds on half of the intersection, rather than both sides of the street, making them inherently safer. In one-way traffic fully half of people crossing the street (legally) are not exposed to turning automobile whereas in two way traffic, everyone is. The couple of sited studies that I ran into of before and after comparisons of two-way to one-way conversions in a decent sized area (given, they were done in the 60s-80s) showed about a 50% reduction in pedestrian collisions. That's pretty huge.

[DaveKCMO]

I shudder to think of how bad traffic will be in the first couple months of the streetcar's operation, as bewildered suburbanites, unaware of the existence of streets downtown that are not Main, Broadway, and Grand, adjust to the relative lack of Main's utility, as related to getting to the parking garages on Main by the same route as they now(still quite foolishly) take.

the alignment is designed to prevent a streetcar being stuck behind a turning car (hence all the new turn lanes). the biggest concern will be drivers who double-park (bringing the streetcar to a halt) or those who run red lights and t-bone a $3 million vehicle that their insurance will have to repair/replace.

if you subtract every run of the 28/28x/37x/47/51/54/101/173/201 from main street -- and they will be moved to grand or 12th -- most of your streetcar "congestion" simply disappears.

also, perceived time savings through the crossroads will be eliminated by a new traffic signal at 16th and slower average speeds due to the permanent placement of on-street parking on both sides. signal phases will probably also change to better align the with the streetcar's schedule.

as for two-way streets in general, all road users are more alert because they're trained to look in all directions for other road users. so, yeah, cyclists should also be trained to use more caution when a street is converted to two-way. ultimately, though, they are better for RETAIL, which has struggled downtown since the entire grid was forced to a one-way configuration during urban renewal (or earlier?).

THE NATURAL STATE OF THE DOWNTOWN GRID IS LOW SPEED, TWO-WAY TRAFFIC.

[bahua]

I was under the impression that on Main, the availability of traffic lanes to general POV traffic would be reduced, in a specific(and worthwhile, IMO) effort to provide dedicated roadway for the streetcar. As such, the currently difficult pursuit of driving one's POV down Main will be downgraded to moronic.

Am I to understand that this will not actually be the case? That the streetcar will be sharing space with POVs on Main? If that's the case, then God help us all.

[chingon]

being a considerate human

I honestly believe this is incompatible with automobile driving for something like 90% of people at least 75% of the time.

[flyingember]

being a considerate human

I honestly believe this is incompatible with automobile driving for something like 90% of people at least 75% of the time.

there was something I saw that when you get past around 15mph it becomes very hard for people to make personal connections the way humans are designed to.

there's also an aspect of tunnel vision. our eyes are designed to focus only on a tiny area in front and have motion sensitivity for the rest. but when you're moving 25mph things to the side are all moving.

[shinatoo]

being a considerate human

I honestly believe this is incompatible with automobile driving for something like 90% of people at least 75% of the time.

there was something I saw that when you get past around 15mph it becomes very hard for people to make personal connections the way humans are designed to.

there's also an aspect of tunnel vision. our eyes are designed to focus only on a tiny area in front and have motion sensitivity for the rest. but when you're moving 25mph things to the side are all moving.

What is your point? We are talking about left turns in slow traffic (sub 15 mph).

[chingon]

What is your point? We are talking about left turns in slow traffic (sub 15 mph).

My point was simply that I don't trust anyone, even a good, considerate, kind person, to be good, considerate or kind while driving. don't know why, but I really think driving brings out the absolute worst social behavior in people.

[flyingember]

What is your point? We are talking about left turns in slow traffic (sub 15 mph).

do you think someone watching a street light for it to change or the traffic ahead to go through a gap is paying attention even at 0 mph?

[AlbertHammond]

My point was simply that I don't trust anyone, even a good, considerate, kind person, to be good, considerate or kind while driving. don't know why, but I really think driving brings out the absolute worst social behavior in people.

Always a favorite....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZgiVicpZGk

[aknowledgeableperson]

What is your point? We are talking about left turns in slow traffic (sub 15 mph).

My point was simply that I don't trust anyone, even a good, considerate, kind person, to be good, considerate or kind while driving. don't know why, but I really think driving brings out the absolute worst social behavior in people.

Guess you don't trust that bus driver who is driving that bus you are on to make the right choices. Or if you are driving all of the other drivers that are around you. Will the streetcar ever get above 15mph?

[flyingember]

What is your point? We are talking about left turns in slow traffic (sub 15 mph).

My point was simply that I don't trust anyone, even a good, considerate, kind person, to be good, considerate or kind while driving. don't know why, but I really think driving brings out the absolute worst social behavior in people.

Guess you don't trust that bus driver who is driving that bus you are on to make the right choices. Or if you are driving all of the other drivers that are around you. Will the streetcar ever get above 15mph?

bus drivers make mistakes too. and driving all day if they get tired it can happen. with training it's less likely but it happened downtown last year.

as for 15mph+ I would count on it. between west market and the 7th st station, with green lights I would bet it hits the speed limit on the downhill, especially during non-peak hours. 16th to 19th is easily the same. those trains can accelerate fast.

with a future segment over the MO River 35-40+ seems likely

I forget the exact max speed but it was somewhere around 55mph

[DaveKCMO]

I was under the impression that on Main, the availability of traffic lanes to general POV traffic would be reduced, in a specific(and worthwhile, IMO) effort to provide dedicated roadway for the streetcar.

ah, yes. that is true south of 14th where there was too much room to start (minus the "dedicated" part). what is currently five travel lanes during peak hours will be reduced to two travel lanes (both shared with streetcar) and one shared turn lane in the center. curb lanes will become permanent on-street parking at all hours (instead of a mix of bus lanes and off-peak parking that was never effective as either).

with the conversion of baltimore, wyandotte, and walnut to two-way traffic (and portions of many others, soon to be completed), circulating downtown by car should produce shorter trips (not necessarily faster).

the big key for further reducing the amount of cars circulating on downtown streets (because we have plenty of garages to store them all) will be pricing on-street parking appropriately to meet demand (read: increase). this will ensure that on-street parking is always available where it's needed (retail) and not gobbled up by long-term users (workers, residents, events). that will probably be a much bigger policy effort than the streetcar because it involves our state-controlled police department.

[DaveKCMO]

central avenue in the loop will be converted to two-way traffic in the spring.

[DaveKCMO]

central avenue in the loop will be converted to two-way traffic in the spring.

nope! looks like the money was diverted to another project. now we wait...