State Avenue BRT

[DaveKCMO]

tomorrow night is the first public meeting to discuss transit improvements (read: BRT) in the State Avenue Corridor in KCK. according to this press release, the corridor actually goes from downtown KCMO to village west.

also from the press release:

The consulting team of Olsson Associates, Parsons Brinckerhoff and Collins, Noteis and Associates have been contracted to conduct the study. The consultants’ efforts are being guided by a Study Management Team of Mayor Joe Reardon, Unified Government officials, representatives from the KCATA, the Kansas Department of Transportation and the Mid-America Regional Council.

State Avenue Corridor Community Discussion
5:30-7 p.m., Tuesday, Oct. 9
Reardon Center
520 Minnesota, KCK

it should be interesting to see what is being proposed and how it compares to MAX (peak headways, ticketing, GPS, traffic controls, branding), as well as which stops are being considered (such as how many in downtown KCMO, west bottoms, how many in downtown KCK, 18th street, indian springs, KCK community college, providence medical ctr., how many in village west). for those familiar with smartmoves, the study area aligns with part of the "yellow line", which continues on troost through KCMO. while the troost BRT project is officially separate, it would make a lot sense to make it a single line and show the metro what a real bi-state transit line can do (it may not require separate bi-state approval since the UG already funds their own bus service that terminates in KCMO?).

for transit geeks, ATA buses #101 and #106 have evening service to the reardon center from 10th/main. headways on both routes are ~30 minutes for both routes, so it really just depends on your departure time and what scenery you prefer (woodsweather vs. 12th street).

other than a proposal for sunday service in next year's UG budget, this is the first major transit upgrade in KCK in quite awhile!

[dangerboy]

while the troost BRT project is officially separate, it would make a lot sense to make it a single line and show the metro what a real bi-state transit line can do (it may not require separate bi-state approval since the UG already funds their own bus service that terminates in KCMO?).

This seems to go along with MARC's newer and more pragmatic SmartMoves strategy of combining separate local projects into a broader regional framework.  The State Avenue and Troost Avenue BRT's could function as a single line even if the funding is totally separated.

KCATA has already talked about branding all BRT as MAX, using different route names.  For example, MAX Blue Line on Main Street, MAX Yellow Line on Troost/State, MAX Red Line on North Oak, etc.

[GRID]

What about some MAX express runs, say ever hour or so that go straight from downtown KCMO and or KCK to the VW area and back too via 70?

[dangerboy]

What about some MAX express runs, say ever hour or so that go straight from downtown KCMO and or KCK to the VW area and back too via 70?

That would be the "Freeway Flyer" part of Smart Moves, which no one seems interested in implemented yet.

[DaveKCMO]

some facts:

- 1.2 million rides in wyco each year
- 11 routes (5 contracted to KCATA; 6 run by UG)
- top three routes are #106 (1000/day), #101 (975/day), and #114 (480/day) -- all three are KCATA
- annual budget of ~$6 million, $3.4 million of which is provided by UG
- fare recovery is ~$500,000
- 3,100 daily riders in the study area
- 9 month AA period, detailed planning to begin in may 2008
- high transit dependency is a key factor in the corridor
- around 80 people present at tonight's meeting







the format of the meeting was similar to others i've been to:

- presentation/overview
- discuss goals of meeting and the corridor
- break-out sessions and putting dots on a study area map
- recap

[GRID]

3000 daily riders in a blue collar, lower demographic city of 150,000?

KCK seems like a city that should have transit ridership of 10-15k a day.

[DaveKCMO]

3000 daily riders in a blue collar, lower demographic city of 150,000?

3,100 riders daily was just in the state avenue corridor. i didn't hear a daily weekday ridership number for the whole system, but annually it was 1.2 million. i think it's important to note that the six routes within wyco that are actually run by the UG stop running at 7 p.m. with no weekend service. the assumption by the consultants was that there is demand, but the service levels must improve first. transit also ranked high in a recent survey of residents.

[DaveKCMO]

a few questions:

1. who here would take a single-seat BRT line from downtown KC to village west? what would be the limit on trip duration?

today the trip takes over an hour from 10th/main and requires a transfer at indian springs and there is no service at village west after 7 p.m. or on weekends. i ask because there were a LOT of stickers on the village west part of the map last night, so it's not just people from the rest of the metro who are interested in going there (yeah it seems obvious to me now since there are no other major retail centers in wyco -- please correct me if i'm wrong there).

2. would you use a quality hill or west bottoms stop on this same service? or would you prefer a single downtown KC stop (where?) and then hit KCK quickly across the I-70 viaduct?

today there are two routes that hit the bottoms (#101, #106) and one that hits QH (#101). using I-70 would speed things up during off-peak and reverse-peak runs. the only other bus route that serves the bottoms is #12. bike access is limited, but possible. you cannot safely walk to the west bottoms from KCK or KCMO.

3. would the service be more appealing to you if it were a single-seat ride with the troost BRT?

i still have questions whether this would be possible given the current structure and funding sources, but it seems doable on the surface since the above ATA routes operate under contract in KCK and terminate in KCMO.

[dangerboy]

I could see a single seat ride with the Main Street MAX being useful to get people to jobs in Crown Center, Midtown, and on the Plaza.

[OPIchabod]

I also attended last night's transit meeting...as I've pointed out in other threads, the public in Wyandotte County seems so much more in-favor of setting up more robust public transportation services...and because the county itself is in a development mind-set, WyCo leaders should shoot for the stars on this study...

Is there enough demand for light rail in WyCo? Probably not. But the path toward installing light rail would be decidedly easier in WyCo than basically anywhere else in the metro area.

If light rail could be set up, I would imagine it could serve as a test line and also as a model of what the rest of the metro area should pursue.

The demand wouldn't come anywhere near making this WyCo test line financially feasible, but the current mis-mash of transit options in WyCo isn't really financially feasible either - based on demand - as the $6 million service receives just $500,000 in fare revenue...

[dangerboy]

No transit service comes close to breaking even.  In every city across the country fare box collection is just a small part of the funding.

The mish-mash you mention is the county's own doing.  All they have to do to fix it is the ATA for all transit service.

[OPIchabod]

The point I'm trying to make is that light rail should be pursued in WyCo (and is actually part of the State Avenue study...) despite the fact it might be more expensive than BRT or express buses

[TheBigChuckbowski]

1. who here would take a single-seat BRT line from downtown KC to village west? what would be the limit on trip duration?

2. would you use a quality hill or west bottoms stop on this same service? or would you prefer a single downtown KC stop (where?) and then hit KCK quickly across the I-70 viaduct?

3. would the service be more appealing to you if it were a single-seat ride with the troost BRT?

1. Yes and I'd go to Village West way more often than I do now. I hate the drive out there and I hate wasting the gas going out there but it would need to run after 7pm and on the weekends. The way it's set up now is just too much of a hassle on the bus but if it was an hour or less, I'd probably use it.

2. Personally, I wouldn't use those stops because I live close enough to both of them to walk or bike but I would think they would be useful. I think the most useful stop downtown, though, would be wherever it crosses the max line.

3. It makes a lot more sense, more efficient, etc. to combine the 2 and give people that option.

[DaveKCMO]

Invitation

A plan has been developed for improved transit for the State Avenue Corridor which extends from the downtown districts of Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas to Village West. You are invited to a public meeting about this proposed plan

When:    Tuesday, April 15, 2008
4 – 5:30 pm

Where:  Reardon Center
500 Minnesota Ave.
Kansas City, Kansas

If you have questions or need special accommodations please call Robert Bromberg at Olsson Associates, (816) 361-1177.

[GRID]

I'm surprised nobody is talking about this.  I guess cause it has nothing to do with college sports?

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/story/577881.html

Good news for KCK.  A max line in KCK needs to happen now.

Where in the fuck is Smartmoves?????????????????????????  Seriously, I have NEVER EVER EVER seen something move as slow as smartmoves.

[DaveKCMO]

i was unable to make the meeting, so i didn't post about it. 

as soon as i get a copy of the presentation i will post some details, specifically whether or not it will stop in the west bottoms as the 101, 102, and 106 do today.

i did overhear that sunday metro service in KCK will begin in october. that might have been in the star, but i'm not sure.

[bbqboy]

"...The Wyandotte County study ruled out light rail in the short term because it would cost so much — an estimated $500 million — and would not attract enough riders.  Planners said there is not enough population density to generate sufficient ridership for rail....."


Isn't this the same chicken & egg argument that always happens? Doesn't light rail have the ability to induce density?

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Why would it cost 4x more for its own lane?

[GRID]

"...The Wyandotte County study ruled out light rail in the short term because it would cost so much — an estimated $500 million — and would not attract enough riders.  Planners said there is not enough population density to generate sufficient ridership for rail....."


Isn't this the same chicken & egg argument that always happens? Doesn't light rail have the ability to induce density?

WyCo absolutely does not justify rail.  It’s not even close and I doubt it will be in our lifetimes.

First off, to go from Downtown KCK clear to Village West would cost more than 500 million.  You can add 100-200 million to that.

Second the population densities of WyCo are very low.  You have to add up the entire county to reach a population of 150k.

Third, there are not enough jobs in WyCo and the jobs they do have are industrial which would produce few riders.  BRT buses would get employees jobs along State Ave just fine.

Forth, traffic congestion is nearly non-existent in WyCo, both on the interstates and the surface streets and what traffic there is on the interstates is mostly commuter traffic from JoCo and the northland crossing through WyCO to get to JoCo, the Northland and Downtown.

Think about it.  KCMO has a four mile stretch in the RCP that has 200-300k residents, 200-300k jobs, major attractions, sports and convention venues and they have a hard time justifying to the feds or themselves that they need light rail.  Why on earth would you stick like rail along a 20 mile stretch of sparsely populated WyCo?

They can, but they will have to do it without fed money and that is something they can’t afford to do and that’s good, because it would be a waste of money to install a  massive light rail system in a county that has a daily bus ridership on the “BUS” that is less than a few trips on the Blue Springs Express.

I’m all for regional transit, but this is a major beef with me.  When Funkhouser said that light rail to the Speedway was a top regional priority, it proved to me that he has no idea what he’s talking about.  There so many other regional corridors that could use rail before we even look at I-70 in WyCo.

WyCo should take 50 million and build a nice BRT line.  Then instead of spending 500 million on light rail, fix their downtown up so people have a reason to use MAX.  Then in 50 years, look and see if the density between KCMO and 435 is any better and study light rail again.  By then, WyCo will have more people living west of 435 than east and there will be a line from KCI to JoCo via 435 .

[bbqboy]

WyCo absolutely does not justify rail.  It’s not even close and I doubt it will be in our lifetimes.

First off, to go from Downtown KCK clear to Village West would cost more than 500 million.  You can add 100-200 million to that.

Second the population densities of WyCo are very low.  You have to add up the entire county to reach a population of 150k.

Third, there are not enough jobs in WyCo and the jobs they do have are industrial which would produce few riders.  BRT buses would get employees jobs along State Ave just fine.

Forth, traffic congestion is nearly non-existent in WyCo, both on the interstates and the surface streets and what traffic there is on the interstates is mostly commuter traffic from JoCo and the northland crossing through WyCO to get to JoCo, the Northland and Downtown.

Think about it.  KCMO has a four mile stretch in the RCP that has 200-300k residents, 200-300k jobs, major attractions, sports and convention venues and they have a hard time justifying to the feds or themselves that they need light rail.  Why on earth would you stick like rail along a 20 mile stretch of sparsely populated WyCo?

They can, but they will have to do it without fed money and that is something they can’t afford to do and that’s good, because it would be a waste of money to install a  massive light rail system in a county that has a daily bus ridership on the “BUS” that is less than a few trips on the Blue Springs Express.

I’m all for regional transit, but this is a major beef with me.  When Funkhouser said that light rail to the Speedway was a top regional priority, it proved to me that he has no idea what he’s talking about.  There so many other regional corridors that could use rail before we even look at I-70 in WyCo.

WyCo should take 50 million and build a nice BRT line.  Then instead of spending 500 million on light rail, fix their downtown up so people have a reason to use MAX.  Then in 50 years, look and see if the density between KCMO and 435 is any better and study light rail again.  By then, WyCo will have more people living west of 435 than east and there will be a line from KCI to JoCo via 435 .

I can't disagree with you on a practical level, I just wish someone was a visionary, a dreamer, and could envision what could be, not what is.
(politicans, not you, grid.)