Domestic Auto Industry

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KC Kropf
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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FangKC wrote: Detroit Big 3 makes gains against imports in youth market

In the 18-to 30-year-old vehicle market, Detroit's Big 3 is now neck-and-neck in consideration with imports for young car buyers.

http://autos.aol.com/article/youth-cons ... -vehicles/
I'm 29 and just bought a 2011 GMC Terrain!  Love it so far. 
On to the Next One
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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I got a Ford a few years back.  I never, at any point in my life, thought I would be inclined to buy a Ford.  They have really turned that company around.  Here's to hoping that GM and Ford both aren't content to stay status quo after making so many positive changes.  There is still a lot to improve upon, but the key battle of nudging perception of quality in the right direction has already been won.  I know Ford had made huge strides with the quality of many of its cars in the mid-00's, but nobody believed it because of 20 years of crap.
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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bobbyhawks wrote: I got a Ford a few years back.  I never, at any point in my life, thought I would be inclined to buy a Ford.  They have really turned that company around.  Here's to hoping that GM and Ford both aren't content to stay status quo after making so many positive changes.  There is still a lot to improve upon, but the key battle of nudging perception of quality in the right direction has already been won.  I know Ford had made huge strides with the quality of many of its cars in the mid-00's, but nobody believed it because of 20 years of crap.
I'd like to have a Fiesta 5-door. I'd give it very strong consideration against any Honda or Toyota. And I'm partial to Honda...not Toyota so much.
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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  thanks for the link Fang, that's interesting and seems to coincide with my own increased interest in domestic vehicles.  The Big 2, at least, have made great strides in the last 5-8 years (verdict is still out to some degree at Chrysler, with the possible exception of my beloved Jeep brand and the runaway success of the 300c). 
 
  it's great to see US companies finally beginning to produce cutting edge products (i.e. Ford's EcoTec turbo line and Sync system, GM Volt and magnetic shock tech) in well styled vehicles, while still doing what they do best, better than anyone else (real trucks, incredibly powerful and efficient pushrod V8s, muscle cars). 
 
  also nice to see them take a chainsaw to their bloated model lines, GM especially.  Focus on the core products, do them well.  I still think Ford needs to either ditch Lincoln or differentiate further.

 
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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rxlexi wrote: Jeep brand
 
i will never forgive them for axing the regular cherokee, cherokee country, etc. in favor of the patriot, liberty, et al.  what a joke!  those aren't jeeps!  bring back the cherokee, which is an american classic.  offer it with luxe finishes like the grand, as well as more hardcore, wrangler (or range rover) esque accessories.  the success of the Xterra, FJ cruiser, etc. shows that americans still want a basic, boxy 4x4.  hell they could even produce a diesel or hybrid cherokee.  their recent ad campaign for the grand cherokee invokes the recent push for design-minded folks towards "handmade," heritage, americana type goods.  bring it back!
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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If you haven't seen a Chevy Cruze yet prepare to be impressed. The interior with leather is like a smaller CTS.
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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chrizow wrote: i will never forgive them for axing the regular cherokee, cherokee country, etc. in favor of the patriot, liberty, et al.  what a joke!  those aren't jeeps!  bring back the cherokee, which is an american classic.  offer it with luxe finishes like the grand, as well as more hardcore, wrangler (or range rover) esque accessories.  the success of the Xterra, FJ cruiser, etc. shows that americans still want a basic, boxy 4x4.  hell they could even produce a diesel or hybrid cherokee.  their recent ad campaign for the grand cherokee invokes the recent push for design-minded folks towards "handmade," heritage, americana type goods.  bring it back!
similarly, ford needs to bring back a cool, boxy bronco.  like an updated version of the 70s model below.  american car companies need to make ballsy, tough, american cars that will stand the test of time.  (the ford freestyle?  are you shitting me?)

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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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^^^ chrizow.  Ha, I agree 110% re: Cherokee/Bronco/tough 'merican cars.  Cue Jeep rant - you essentially described my ideal "family" or all-around vehicle.  A tough, simple Cherokee sized (they are SO SMALL by today's standards, despite the look.  Probably about civic-sized) box with real 4x4 (i.e. lo-range), useable space, boxy look and a torquey, efficient turbo diesel and MANUAL transmission, ideally. 

  You, me and a million other people don't understand why Jeep dropped the Cherokee and replaced with Liberty..they were still selling the 20 year old design in 2001 when they killed it.  Liberty and Patriot have their pluses and minuses but neither puts together a total package anywhere near the simple joy of the Cherokee.

  on the "simple American craftsmanship" angle...I found it awesome and funny when I was flipping through a GQ a few weeks ago and saw, in a big glossy Tommy Hilfiger ad, with attractive young kids running all around it...a late 80's Jeep Grand Wagoneer.  The same Jeep my grandpa had for years and years and took hunting, fishing etc.  I loved that thing, and here it is representing, next to I believe a mint BMW 2002, classy old-school design cues. 

  The new Grand Cherokee is pretty awesome, but really a little TOO nice, and too expensive.  At least it's likely worth the money, unlike say a Liberty...the interior and drivetrain is finally world-class - one of the most attractive, and last, real SUVs on the market.  C'mon Jeep, build another Cherokee and put a diesel in that bitch! 

  I should say a new Bronco with Ford's turbo 4 or 6 would be really sweet too...but Ford seems to be ditching real trucks in favor of crossovers and the like (i.e. the new Explorer rides on the Taurus chassis).
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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rxlexi wrote: on the "simple American craftsmanship" angle...I found it awesome and funny when I was flipping through a GQ a few weeks ago and saw, in a big glossy Tommy Hilfiger ad, with attractive young kids running all around it...a late 80's Jeep Grand Wagoneer.  The same Jeep my grandpa had for years and years and took hunting, fishing etc.  I loved that thing, and here it is representing, next to I believe a mint BMW 2002, classy old-school design cues.  
exactly.  i dont understand why american car companies are spending so much to reinvent the wheel, and go after soccer moms with patriots, et al., when they are sitting on a gold mine of 4x4 design.  they obviously got the message when it came for the new mustang, camaro, charger, etc. - hey, these cars used to be awesome!  let's make them look kind of like that again!  but then they keep foisting stupid SUVs on the market with no style at all.  i would buy a reissue of a wood-paneled grand wagoneer in a heartbeat!
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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rxlexi wrote: ^^^ chrizow.  Ha, I agree 110% re: Cherokee/Bronco/tough 'merican cars.  Cue Jeep rant - you essentially described my ideal "family" or all-around vehicle.  A tough, simple Cherokee sized (they are SO SMALL by today's standards, despite the look.  Probably about civic-sized) box with real 4x4 (i.e. lo-range), useable space, boxy look and a torquey, efficient turbo diesel and MANUAL transmission, ideally. 
True box on frame SUVs are seeing a rapid death.  The damned explorer isn't even box on frame anymore.  Hard to picture a future where there are any true box on frame, off road SUVs ever produced again outside of the Wrangler and Range Rover/Land Rover.  Thus, if a new Cherrokee or Bronco were to ever be brought to market, it would almost certainly have to be some unibody, car-based design, not unlike the crappy patriot, etc, just with more convincing styling.  There is not much future in building a lot of vehicles of the .005% of the population that actually ever drives their SUV off the blacktop.  
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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Favorite bumper sticker I saw in Detroit last year:

Foreign Cars are for Republicans.
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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True box on frame SUVs are seeing a rapid death.  The damned explorer isn't even box on frame anymore.  Hard to picture a future where there are any true box on frame, off road SUVs ever produced again outside of the Wrangler and Range Rover/Land Rover.  Thus, if a new Cherrokee or Bronco were to ever be brought to market, it would almost certainly have to be some unibody, car-based design, not unlike the crappy patriot, etc, just with more convincing styling.  There is not much future in building a lot of vehicles of the .005% of the population that actually ever drives their SUV off the blacktop.
  You are correct.  And to me, therein lies the opportunity for Jeep, as a brand.  You are also correct to look to Land Rover and the still-classic Wrangler for influence.  Jeep will never again sell xxx thousands of overbuilt SUVs to suburban soccer moms etc.  That massive, mainstream market for those vehicles is dissapearing.  So, IMO, they need to get back in touch with their roots, designing niche vehicles that nonetheless have a relatively widespread appeal. 

  Wrangler is a perfect example...it is an off-road machine, not a grocery getter, and will never sell in the kinds of numbers that, say, a CRV will.  And yet they fly out of the dealers and have an incredibly active community around them, many of whom never take them off-road, because they so convincinly possess the capability and personality of a purpose built vehicle.

  Slim down the brand, focus on basic, capable trucks that represent the history and durability that the Jeep name used to stand for (and somewhat still does...goodbye Patriot/Compass etc.).  OR they can go more upscale, and sell "best-in class", supremely capable lux trucks like Rovers, which is the direction they seem to going with the new GC.  Either way, it will become more of a niche brand again, which I think is a great thing.

  Also, the Cherokee and GC are both uni-body SUVs, not body on frame.  And they are both very tough vehicles, given the relative comforts they also possess - you won't mistake either for a Wrangler on a trail, but they certainly can hold their own, and haul and tow a LOT more crap. 
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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Why would Fiat invest billions developing an additional vehicle platform that can only be used for one niche vehicle with limited demand in a single country market?  This day in age, if a vehicle platform can't be used for at least a half dozen models and sales on multiple continents worth several hundred thousand units per year, it doesn't make financial sense to invest in it.  You will be lucky if the Wrangler survives past the current generation - thought they will probably milk this current one out for another 10+ years before pulling the plug.
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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what sort of platform are Xterras and FJ Cruisers on? 
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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chrizow wrote: what sort of platform are Xterras and FJ Cruisers on? 
Xterra is a pick up truck with a different body.  FJ Cruiser is a Land Cruiser with a different body (hence its rather bloated size).

In theory, Fiat could build a Cherokee on the Dakota platform, but it would be as big as a GC and I wouldn't count on the idea that they really plan on keeping Dakotas around long term.  Same thing for Ford - they have been letting the ranger die a slow death for a decade and the fact that they just moved the explorer off wouldn't suggest they have much appettite for keeping it around for an SUV. 
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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lame.  i need a boxy, hip american 4x4 to drive to whole foods.
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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chrizow wrote: lame.  i need a boxy, hip american 4x4 to drive to whole foods.
Better stick with the Forester/XC plan. 
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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  lenexa, I think you may be overstating the case against the wrangler, and especially the type of vehicle Chrizow and I are talking about.  Here's why, IMO -

  1.  Fiat can (and will) keep the Wrangler or a similar vehicle simply because that core product IS the brand.  It is relatively inexpensive to build, I would think, as it will always remain a simple design and could be built of off any existing or future truck platform.  It can be made somewhat economical with the addition of a turbo-diesel (as it is sold in Europe) and modern tech like direct injection and weight savings.

  I don't see Land Rover folding the Range Rover just because the majority of their sales shift to new, car-based concepts.  These brands require a "halo" vehicle that represents the ideal that a buyer of their other models is seeking, at least in theory. 

  If you were to kill the Wrangler (or similar hardcore, iconic off-roader), why continue producing vehicles under the Jeep brand at all?  You have lost the personality that drives sales to the "mass-produced" models.

  2.  There is no reason a convincing "new Cherokee" or comparable can't be made and sell well under new ownership, and a new platform (even car based).  Hell, you could make a halfway convincing attempt at such a thing if you put a real motor and suspension lift on an existing Patriot, which sits on the Dodge Caliber chassis.  The platform doesn't really matter, it doesn't have to be truck based, unless you're a hardcore Jeep nerd.  Reinforce and lift a car-based chassis and you would be fine.

  All this vehicle needs is: ground clearance.  Flexible suspension.  A torquey, efficient engine.  Basic 50/50 torque split 4x4 system.  Easy to clean interior.  And a boxy, space maximizing body (for Hyde Park/Whole Foods stylizing).  All of this could be done on a car chassis, with existing parts (Fiat might actually be an ideal partner for an efficient small off-roader) and I think the look alone will sell the thing. 

  Now, it is interesting to think about the Wrangler, and hence Jeep's (and Rover's) future in an all-electric vehicle world.  All bets are off in that case, though a could see the case for a potentially cool hybrid design. 
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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I should add that I will clearly admit that the winds of change are not blowing in the direction of Jeep/Land Rover or any other cool "real" truck.  I think you will see a dramatic reduction in the sales of these vehicles, and especially truck platform based vehicles. 

  But, at this time, the "brand conscious" Xterra, FJ Cruiser, Wrangler and generally all Land Rover's continue to sell well while it has been the more generic SUVs (Blazer, Suburban, Explorer, etc.) where you have seen sales fall off a cliff.  Taking the Jeep brand into a more niche direction is, IMO, the only potentially positve direction to go as sales of trucks/truck like vehicles for generic family transport continue to fall. 
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Re: Domestic Auto Industry

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rxlexi wrote:   lenexa, I think you may be overstating the case against the wrangler, and especially the type of vehicle Chrizow and I are talking about.  Here's why, IMO -

  1.  Fiat can (and will) keep the Wrangler or a similar vehicle simply because that core product IS the brand.  It is relatively inexpensive to build, I would think, as it will always remain a simple design and could be built of off any existing or future truck platform.  It can be made somewhat economical with the addition of a turbo-diesel (as it is sold in Europe) and modern tech like direct injection and weight savings.
Yeah but what happens when the only truck platform left in the Fiat lineup is the Ram?  Are you prepared for a wrangler roughly the same size as a moderate bread truck?  This day and age there is no such thing as "relatively inexpensive" when it comes to one-off vehicle platforms.  Will Fiat even manage to sell enough Jeeps the next several years for them to care much about its brand integrity?
rxlexi wrote:   2.  There is no reason a convincing "new Cherokee" or comparable can't be made and sell well under new ownership, and a new platform (even car based).  Hell, you could make a halfway convincing attempt at such a thing if you put a real motor and suspension lift on an existing Patriot, which sits on the Dodge Caliber chassis.  The platform doesn't really matter, it doesn't have to be truck based, unless you're a hardcore Jeep nerd.  Reinforce and lift a car-based chassis and you would be fine.


This sounds reasonable, and they may well try somesuch.  But efforts in this direction almost always seem to turn out like a massive disapointment.  Would you really be satisfied with a cherokee that was some dodge/chrysler passanger car lifted up and given some inevitably half-ass suspension upgrades and 4x4 system designed for the highway?  As you mention, they have already tried this product direction a bit, with really poor results.  The end result might well make real jeep loyalists cry. 
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