New AMTRAK route between Kansas City and Oklahoma City

[GRID]

I'm in California on vacation, but following all of this news carefully. This is a significant opportunity that could be lost through indecision or lack of response. The Northern Flyer Alliance is spearheading this effort and really wants representatives in Kansas City-the terminus for this Amtrak expansion. I think the possibilities for this are significant; it is potentiallly one of those situations where the whole is greater than the sum of of the parts. It could very well increase rideship on all Amtrak in this region, both the Missouri trains and the Southwest Chief.

Oops, didn't see this post or I would have just quoted it and said, "Yea, what he said"

[DaveKCMO]

i don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but a connection to STL on this extension would likely require an overnight in KCY. the existing heartland flyer moves 206 rail miles (FTW-OKC) in 4h14m (and that's after recent upgrades). the current southwest chief moves 201 rail miles between NEW (newton) and KCY in 4h25m. there are 187 highway miles between OKC and NEW using I-35, but the BNSF line wiggles around a bit and adds miles (so at least 220, on the conservative side)... so that's at least a 5-hr running time between the two termini. in short, that's about a 14-hr FTW-KCY trip. the 6-hr KCY-STL departures are currently 12:30 p.m. and 4:30 p.m. and will revert back to the original 7:30 a.m. and 4:30 p.m. departures in august. since texas is already subsidizing a portion of the current flyer, it's unlikely they'd want a super early departure just to make a 20-hr trip between a city pair that is already served by a 17h9m overnight trip on the all-superliner texas eagle. a better idea might be to extend one or both missouri trains west to topeka, giving that well-populated corridor multiple departures (since we can't seem to make commuter rail work).

[advocrat]

i don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but a connection to STL on this extension would likely require an overnight in KCY. the existing heartland flyer moves 206 rail miles (FTW-OKC) in 4h14m (and that's after recent upgrades). the current southwest chief moves 201 rail miles between NEW (newton) and KCY in 4h25m. there are 187 highway miles between OKC and NEW using I-35, but the BNSF line wiggles around a bit and adds miles (so at least 220, on the conservative side)... so that's at least a 5-hr running time between the two termini. in short, that's about a 14-hr FTW-KCY trip. the 6-hr KCY-STL departures are currently 12:30 p.m. and 4:30 p.m. and will revert back to the original 7:30 a.m. and 4:30 p.m. departures in august. since texas is already subsidizing a portion of the current flyer, it's unlikely they'd want a super early departure just to make a 20-hr trip between a city pair that is already served by a 17h9m overnight trip on the all-superliner texas eagle. a better idea might be to extend one or both missouri trains west to topeka, giving that well-populated corridor multiple departures (since we can't seem to make commuter rail work).

I think Dave is on the right track here, and for those who might be skeptical about this discussion it is actually a matter of creativity and adjustments, and this is all within the realm of planning and possibility.  The alternative is the status quo-a future of highway dependence and competition with commercial traffic that will only increase.

[Belle the dog]

The problem is Kansas City to St. Louis.  One can travel from Kansas City to Chicago nearly as fast as one can from KC to St. Louis -- and that's with Chicago being twice as far away.  Six hours is the schedule from KC to St. L but it frequently takes longer.  Passenger trains easily go from KC to Chicago in just under 8 hours.  Try driving from here to Chicago in under 8 hours.

Kansas City to Fort Worth travel time would be 12½ hours assuming that train fueling and servicing could be done differently than it is now.  The Santa Fe Texas Chief easily held a 12½ hour schedule and could do so again even going by way of Lawrence, Topeka, Newton, and Wichita (major sources of passenger revenue). 

The problem with the Texas Chief's schedule is that it was scheduled more for the convenience of passengers in Chicago, Fort Worth and Houston than for Kansas City.  Kansas City to Fort Worth passengers would find the schedule of the Santa Fe's Kansas Citian much more convenient.  It had a better schedule and would serve as a model for how a competitive train should run today.

A reasonable -- and competitive schedule would have a train depart Kansas City in the morning and arrive in Fort Worth in the evening. 

Ideally, a train extended to Dallas would add that city to the schedule although I understand freight traffic congestion has been a problem between those two cities since the BRI trackage was abandoned (please correct me if I am in error on this).

Other railroads could beat the Santa Fe's time from Kansas City to Dallas-Fort Worth because they were much shorter.  The Rock Island's Twin Star Rocket was an example as was the Katy's Bluebonnet though it has been many years since the Katy was much of a competitor in the passenger business.  The Rock Island served Lawrence and Topeka but missed Oklahoma City.  Katy had the shortest route but missed all but a couple of important towns between KC and Dallas/Fort Worth.

If track speeds were improved between St. Louis and Kansas City, a St. Louis to Wichita train would make sense (via KC, Lawrence & Topeka); or even a St. Louis to Oklahoma City train (on the same route but extended to Ok City).  A St. Louis to Fort Worth via Wichita would not be particularly competitive.

[DaveKCMO]

Ideally, a train extended to Dallas would add that city to the schedule although I understand freight traffic congestion has been a problem between those two cities since the BRI trackage was abandoned (please correct me if I am in error on this).

the daily texas eagle goes between dallas union station and ft. worth transportation center. service between the two city centers is also provided by TRE commuter rail.

http://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/map.html

[Belle the dog]

I know that the Texas Eagle operates between Dallas and Fort Worth but am wondering if it runs on the Union Pacific (Texas & Pacific) or the BRI (Burlington/Rock Island joint facility)?  It appears that the Trinity Rail Express operates on the former BRI in which case it may well be possible for an Amtrak train to be run on the former BRI, as well.

Any way you figure it, a Kansas City to Fort Worth/Dallas train is feasible.  A 12½ hour schedule is also reasonable even given station stops at Norman, OK (Univ of Okla), Oklahoma City, Wichita (Wichita State University), Newton, Emporia (Emporia State University), Topeka (Washburn), and Lawrence (KU). 

When the Santa Fe Texas Chief operated from Chicago to Houston, I would guess that only about ½ of 1% of passengers rode all the way from one end to another.  The intermediate stops are what generated the traffic.  I would guess the same for a KC to Fort Worth or Dallas train, also.

[DaveKCMO]

the fall newsletter:

http://passengerrailok.org/TheFlyerFall2007.pdf

[advocrat]

The Northern Flyer Alliance is apparently very active, very committed and is effectively organizing commuties all along the proposed route. The estimated operational cost for the entire route from Kansas to Oklahoma City is no greater than 6 million annually. The route, proposed with a daytime schedule to complement the Southwest Chief that runs over the same track in the evening would provide convenient travel connections for Kansas in the most densely populated area of the State. The route also connects directly to one of the newer National Parks in the National Parks Service system.  Public meetings are in progress and the Northern Flyer Alliance has near term plans for a meeting in the Kansas City area.  Although some have said there is a Kansas statute prohibition against this type of AMTRAK expansion that, apparently, is a statement couched in convenient interpretation, it's a smokescreen and is not true.

AMTRAK is very interested and the Lautenberg legislation provides a new federal-state funding mechanism.

The old adage of "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" (i.e. increased ridership over what is currently seen) is a distinct possibility. 

Also, naysayers should not compare the possibilities of the Kansas proposal with the existing Missouri situation. Missouri's misery is wholly due to the Union Pacific, a bad road-bed, and other factors that are not present in Kansas: The Southwest Chief runs on-time most of the time, over very good tracks. It is likely that the Northern Flyer, connecting Kansas City, Lawrence, Topeka, Osage City, Emporia, Strong City, Newton, Wichita, Arkansas City and south to Oklahoma City through to Dallas Fort Worth would provide the same fine service, and avoid a route that goes to Dallas, by way of Chicago.   

[DaveKCMO]

http://thekansascitypost.com/2007/11/pa ... iance.html

The U.S. Senate recently passed a bill that can provide major funding increases for Amtrak, including provisions for intercity passenger service compacts between states. Kansas and Oklahoma are in a perfect position to share in up to an 80% federal match for the cost of corridor development mentioned above. For Kansas this translates into an estimated $8 million dollar requirement, of which $6 million would originate from the federal match. Ridership is projected in the neighborhood of 75,000 the first year likely higher based on similar routes that have developed in recent years.

On Saturday, December 8th from 10:30-noon, the Northern Flyer Alliance will hold an open public meeting in the Jarvis Hunt room in Kansas City Union Station. This convocation and discussion will include representatives from regional rail advocacy coalitions whose efforts are supported by the NFA. All are welcome to attend, listen, learn, and share ideas that support our passenger rail expansion initiativ

[advocrat]

This public notice (text only) is in the Plaza Library. There is also notice of a meeting of public officials preceding this meeting at 9:00 am. Don't know if it is open to the public, but it doesn't say they aren't either.  This may be interesting and a positive step for new trains in the KC area.



                                                    NORTHERN FLYER ALLIANCE


PUBLIC MEETING NOTICE

PASSENGER RAIL EXPANSION

WHEN:  December 8, 2007
WHERE:  K.C. UNION STATION –Jarvis Hunt Room
TIME:  10:00 am –Noon

The Northern Flyer Alliance invites the public for a meeting and discussion about the effort to expand passenger rail service in Kansas. This initiative is the goal of two  organizations: Passengerrailok.org; and Passengerrailks.org. Representatives from ProRail Nebraska, Quad Cities Passenger Rail Coalition and Midwest High Speed Rail may attend this important convocation of regional rail advocates.

                            AGENDA:

1. Passenger Rail Expansion Initiatives
2. Proposed Route through Kansas
3. Recent legislation
4. Amtrak studies
5. Other passenger rail initiatives in the Midwest
6. Public support for Amtrak expansion in Kansas

The general public is invited to participate, join this effort and take action.  For more information contact: corvids@sbcglobal.net.

Attend and bring a friend.

[DaveKCMO]

plus you can see the great christmas trees on display! but seriously, kansas is on the cusp of really making this happen within 3-4 years... the more support we can get from the traveling public, the better! just a reminder that proposed daylight stops are topeka, lawrence, emporia, newton, wichita, and ark city (then on to OKC and FTW).

[advocrat]

I went to the meeting of the Northern Flyer Alliance. There was a nice representation of community leaders, some council members from three Johnson County cities, a university rep, a Kansas house member, a member of the light rail task force, the KDOT, and others.

The Star article mentions challenges and costs. The costs, however, and in the opinion of the two presenters are not very high to begin with ($6m to put the system into operation with a train) and the the possibility of the federal off-set from the recent U.S. Senate bill could reduce this figure by 80%.

The referenced article is slightly gloomy or neutral, but I didn't come away with the same impression.  This initiative seems to be organized, with a solid plan and legislative agenda.


http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/st ... ecent_comm

[DaveKCMO]

Train thoughts: A new passenger rail route through Lawrence is worth investigating

On Thursday, Lawrence city commissioners heard from a grass-roots organization of Oklahoma and Kansas leaders who wanted the commission’s support for plans to establish new passenger rail service between Kansas City and the Dallas-Fort Worth area. The “Northern Flyer” plan is to use existing track that already carries the Southwest Chief through Lawrence on its way between Chicago and Los Angeles and seek about $5 million in state funding to improve tracks between Newton and Oklahoma City to create a route that would head south to Dallas.

In retrospect, America probably shouldn’t have been so quick to give up on trains for transporting people. The proponents of the new Northern Flyer route are asking the Lawrence City Commission only for its moral support — not money, at least for now. It seems reasonable for the city to give that support and see how far the organizers can get with this interesting proposal.

[KCMax]

In retrospect, America probably shouldn’t have been so quick to give up on trains for transporting people.

No kiddin.

[bobbyhawks]

I've always thought Lawrence should take it one step further.  If they could convince Village West and Union Station that a 4-6 times daily commuter line is a good idea, they could accomplish a number of positive things.  It would encourage people to live in Lawrence and commute to KC for work (or KC to Larry), people to come to KC for weekends or visit Lawrence for weekends, spark an interest in commuter lines that would tie in to future light rail, be a forward (and backward) thinking way of being eco-friendly, stimulate cab and bus ridership in both areas.

Also, I don't get why high speed rail (not 80 mph, but 150+) from Denver to KC to St. Louis isn't a bigger consideration.

[NDTeve]

I've always thought Lawrence should take it one step further.  If they could convince Village West and Union Station that a 4-6 times daily commuter line is a good idea, they could accomplish a number of positive things.  It would encourage people to live in Lawrence and commute to KC for work (or KC to Larry), people to come to KC for weekends or visit Lawrence for weekends, spark an interest in commuter lines that would tie in to future light rail, be a forward (and backward) thinking way of being eco-friendly, stimulate cab and bus ridership in both areas.

Also, I don't get why high speed rail (not 80 mph, but 150+) from Denver to KC to St. Louis isn't a bigger consideration.

Like Europe? I don't either.

[advocrat]

I've always thought Lawrence should take it one step further.  If they could convince Village West and Union Station that a 4-6 times daily commuter line is a good idea, they could accomplish a number of positive things.  It would encourage people to live in Lawrence and commute to KC for work (or KC to Larry), people to come to KC for weekends or visit Lawrence for weekends, spark an interest in commuter lines that would tie in to future light rail, be a forward (and backward) thinking way of being eco-friendly, stimulate cab and bus ridership in both areas.

Also, I don't get why high speed rail (not 80 mph, but 150+) from Denver to KC to St. Louis isn't a bigger consideration.

Kansas DOT completed a study in 2001 on passenger rail, route options, high speed recommendations, etc. It included ridership studies and a variety of scenarios and then concluded with some costs figures that made the "consideration" not economically practical until 2020-2030.  Well, KC-Topeka only was one scenario, and it is still possible to view this document on the KDOT website. Pretty interesting, and it would be ecoomically possible if the study would have avoided the unaffordable recommendation for the mythical "high-speed" train.

If intercity passenger rail was reintroduced in Kansas, it ought to be developed at the outset as a daytime expansion of train service over the existing Southwest Chief route, so as to avoid astronomical start-up costs, and, be a connector for the intermediate market from Kansas City-Lawrence-Emporia-Wichita-Winfield-Arkansas City and on to Oklahoma city where it can continue on south over the existing Heartland Flyer to Fort Worth. Development costs are $8 million; when proven successful could be expanded further w/regard to frequency between Topeka and Kansas City.  Creative scheduling could very easily make this a viable commuter connector by fiat.

[kcjak]

Sorry, but I can't find info about posting info from printed sources - below info is from the Wichita Eagle today, but I took out a little in case of copyright issues.  Anyway, it would be nice to have the largest city in Kansas supporting this...

Wichita council supports train stop
Wichita City Council members today indicated that they would support a resolution in support of the expansion of the Heartland Flyer train route and a train stop somewhere in Old Town. The proposed route would extend an existing Amtrak line from Oklahoma City to Wichita and Kansas City.

Autumn Heithaus, executive director of the Northern Flyer Alliance, said the Old Town Association last week voiced strong support for a train stop in the city's premier nightlife district.

...

Vice Mayor Sharon Fearey asked that city attorneys review the proposed resolution and present it to the council at their first meeting in April.

"We have a lot of people in the community that do take the train and drive up to Newton," Fearey said, referring to a passenger train stop in Newton. "I just think it is something that could really enhance our city and have people coming in and out of here

[DaveKCMO]

excellent news!

the following cities in kansas have also approved resolutions in support of this route: lawrence, arkansas city, mulvane, sedgwick, strong city, and emporia. as mentioned previously, KDOT formally requested a route study from amtrak last year.

http://northflyer.org/action.shtml

[KCMax]

That would be really great. I would actually like taking the train to visit family in Wichita!