We need a new airport!!!

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voltopt
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby voltopt » Fri May 19, 2017 3:28 pm

I know, there will be public oversight, my main concern is how much of a mark-up there will be to cover private construction loan interest and general conditions. And by mark-up, I mean 'less money to spend on nice stuff.'

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri May 19, 2017 3:34 pm

Burns and Mac is not going to cut corners in this. This will be their showcase design.

I say it will pass easily for multiple reasons. I agree it probably would have passed anyways. Now you have some addition benefit of it being fast and the "no city bonds" people. Between June and November many additional things will occur....burns will come out with a sexy rendering. Convenience factors will be asked and answered properly....and I wouldn't be surprised if Southwest and another airline like Alaska came out and provided some sort of carrot

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby voltopt » Fri May 19, 2017 3:42 pm

I really think this process should be open. B&M is an incredibly successful and talented engineering firm, and I don't doubt their expertise on the airside of the project, but I'm having difficultly finding any 'terminal design' images in their portfolio. We have some of the best designers in the world right here in KC, and inevitably B&M will partner with one of them, I'm sure of it, if they haven't already. But that is what would happen if this were a bond issued project, or a traditional P3. Our city just went out and hired a developer in a closed process. Alarm bells!

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby voltopt » Fri May 19, 2017 3:42 pm

And by alarm bells I mean legal exposure for the city. It would be negative, indeed, if this project were held up by lawsuits from other developers who didn't get a chance to compete for the project.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri May 19, 2017 3:47 pm

Anybody else is free to approach the city and offer this deal.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby voltopt » Fri May 19, 2017 4:00 pm

KCPowercat wrote:Anybody else is free to approach the city and offer this deal.


Actually, they are not, as the city is preparing to sign the MOU.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri May 19, 2017 4:05 pm

City officials put out informal requests for airport solutions for many months. B&M had the creativity to work out a good solution, the initiative to push the proposal to the city and has the experience of being a top 3 airport developer in the United States. Those three characteristics along with them being homegrown is enough for me. Shave the two years and get it done.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri May 19, 2017 4:07 pm

voltopt wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:Anybody else is free to approach the city and offer this deal.


Actually, they are not, as the city is preparing to sign the MOU.


In June. This was floated publicly by the mayor last year and I'm sure more forcefully privately to these firms.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri May 19, 2017 4:08 pm

Time is money and to get this voted on by November to get this process moving is one need for the speed....lose the time advantage this doesn't becomes as sensible to do.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby voltopt » Fri May 19, 2017 4:08 pm

Floated, but not formally proposed. There is a difference!

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri May 19, 2017 4:19 pm

Agreed...this isn't a normal deal. I think we all get that. I think the city getting outside council is a prudent step.

Given it's not the city asking for bids in return for city backed money....I still am not sure what "bids" everybody expects here? Burns and mac have come in with an offer to private finance at the price the airlines have already agreed to...that is the transaction here.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby voltopt » Fri May 19, 2017 4:26 pm

KCPowercat wrote:Agreed...this isn't a normal deal. I think we all get that. I think the city getting outside council is a prudent step.

Given it's not the city asking for bids in return for city backed money....I still am not sure what "bids" everybody expects here? Burns and mac have come in with an offer to private finance at the price the airlines have already agreed to...that is the transaction here.



I am referring to an RFP, which would ellicit proposals from other developer/design teams, not bids. As of now there is one proposal that was discussed privately. If it were an open RFP process there would be competition, which is healthy and could lead to other innovations.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby voltopt » Fri May 19, 2017 4:30 pm

Healthy skepticism!

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri May 19, 2017 4:31 pm

Sometimes you can lose a good deal in search for the absolute best deal....and end up with nothing.

I agree skepticism is good when looking at this deal.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Fri May 19, 2017 4:48 pm

voltopt wrote:I know, there will be public oversight, my main concern is how much of a mark-up there will be to cover private construction loan interest and general conditions. And by mark-up, I mean 'less money to spend on nice stuff.'


As I understand the process yes there would be a higher interest cost but that higher cost can be offset by a tighter design and build process with this proposal. A normal process would likely have an RFP for a design firm to start the process. And before the successful design firm signs the contract it could take 4 to 6 months to get to that point. Then, of course, you have the design period. And once that is completed and reviewed and redesigned it could then go out to bid for a general contractor. And again that could be a 4 to 6 month process before the general contractor signs the contract. Then you have the construction start-up process and then the construction period. Of course this does not even include the time period beforehand for the bonds to be approved and sold. So if one can knock off 18 to 24 months from beginning to end that is 18 to 24 months shorter period of paying interest costs before any revenue arrives from airport operations.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby pash » Fri May 19, 2017 4:51 pm

voltopt wrote:I think this deal shows a political spinelessness from our civic leaders. If they had any sort of will, they would put the airport question on the ballot as a public bond issue as originally planned.

Right. The mayor and other advocates for a new terminal should be making their case to the public, trying to change the minds of the majority of citizens who don't see the logic for a new terminal. They still have not done that to any meaningful extent.



voltopt wrote:Additionally, the provincial argument of "KCI will move to Omaha or JoCO" is a bad one, ...

Yeah, I don't quite get that argument. Here's Sly James quoted in a recent Biz Journal article:

Back in February, when Gov. Sam Brownback confirmed rumors that his administration was investigating the possibility of building a new commercial airport in Johnson County to rival or replace KC, "people thought that's interesting (but) not likely to happen," James said.

"Since then, we have been told that they're serious," he said. "They've reached out to key people in Congress. They've reached out to the airlines.

"My fear is that we don't do anything, we push this off, we wait until next year to go to a vote. Then, in the interim, maybe Kansas come back and says, 'Hooray. We've gone to the Trump administration. They want to do something big with infrastructure. They've given us $2 billion. And we're going to build an airport.'

Why would it be such a disaster for Kansas and the feds to buy us a shiny new airport, Sly? Just because it would be in Kansas? It might be even farther from the city center than KCI, but KCI's already too far to connect with transit, and I'm the only one in this thread who seems to think its distance is a substantial demerit, so what's another five or ten miles? An airport in JoCo might actually be closer to the metro's population center, and I imagine it would certainly be closer to the center of the airport's user population. And KCI could move on to a second career as a major air- and multimodal freight facility. ...



voltopt wrote:The misunderstood nature of the financing gives the 'SAVE OUR KCI" people another angle to campaign against, one which will resonate "OMG CRONYISM!!"

The argument won't lack merit. I mean, they're talking about signing a contract for a billion-dollar project without even talking to Burns & McDonnell's competitors. Oh, and lest we forget, after the city awarded Burns & McDonnell the project-management contract for the last round of renovations at KCI, there were so many accusations of cronyism that the city council eventually ordered an audit of the selection process [PDF]:

In 1998, when the city sought quotations for project management services, one area contractor reported his firm declined to submit a proposal because Burns & McDonnell was “politically favored to win.” Aviation Department staff still describe the selection process as “questionable.” Several staff stated that one of the selection committee members stated a preference for Burns & McDonnell although the member had not seen all the candidate presentations. A member of the City Manager’s Office suggested that if the city had done a better job with the selection process, the city would not have had to consider a subsequent contract to review the work of Burns & McDonnell.


(Mercifully it is HNTB, I think, not Burns & Mac, who deserves the blame for the dead-on-arrival design of the last renovation, in case you were wondering. That's the design that split the secured areas from all of the terminals' amenities, creating the situation that proponents of a new terminal cite as the main reason the whole thing needs to be torn down. If Burns & Mac were responsible for that, this whole thing would be too much a farce.)
Last edited by pash on Fri May 19, 2017 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby cityscape » Fri May 19, 2017 4:53 pm

Number one international destination not served by KC is London. B&M and Cerner both have significant offices there. There are airlines paying attention to what happens here and if the terminal is built and can adequately support a larger twin aisle plane and customs, there will be a direct flight to the UK. It is my opinion that carrot will be dangled out there after the MOU is signed. I don't see the new terminal opening up a lot of possibilities within the continental US, but I DO see it having a great effect on our international service. We have businesses here that are growing leaps and bounds and they need an airport that gets their staff where they need them faster than sending through multiple airports.

I believe the city's campaign to sell this to the general public needs to involve the comparisons between old and new. I think most who don't want to get rid of KCI haven't flown out of it in the last decade. This won't be a huge terminal when compared to most of the hubs, but will be bigger and thus will have many more amenities that are severely lacking or are missing altogether today.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby beautyfromashes » Fri May 19, 2017 5:10 pm

^ Might not open up many new domestic locations, but could provide conpetition for the ones we already have and lower fare costs. Would love some international locations. Paris or Rio would be awesome. Could also see direct flights to Hawaii once SW starts flying there.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby pash » Fri May 19, 2017 5:15 pm

cityscape wrote:Number one international destination not served by KC is London.

That would be fantastic, but I doubt it's ever going to happen unless there are big handouts involved—not just because KC's market is too small, but because you're going to fly almost within spitting distance of O'Hare on the direct route between KC and London. It's always going to make too much sense to dump people in Chicago and collect them there.

But that makes me wonder—has there been any discussion of whether the proposed new terminal will feature international gates at all? I haven't heard anything, and the conceptual designs I've seen seem to envision a single pool of gates that can be shuffled around between airlines as needed, a setup that with only 35 gates to go around might preclude the possibility of any permanent customs and immigration area at all.

Will a new terminal put an end to KCI's nominal status as an international airport?
Last edited by pash on Fri May 19, 2017 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri May 19, 2017 5:18 pm

4 international gates.


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