Ferguson, Missouri

[pash]

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[chaglang]

Why would anyone want to be a cop? You risk your life with every call or stop, everything you do is recorded on camera so you can never make a mistake, the people that you are trying to protect look at you with suspicion, if not downright contempt, and you get paid peanuts. Who signs up for that?!?

It's a calling, like many public service jobs.

At the same time it's really not to much to ask that cops be accountable under the same laws that they are sworn (and paid) to uphold. They're not paramilitaries, despite the pimp rides and big boy guns the Pentagon gave them.

Nobody knows how many people police kill every year, but the FBI tallies about 2,400 in the six years between 2007 and 2012. When the Wall Street Journal checked the numbers of the country's largest police forces, they found that the FBI's numbers missed about 45% of killings by those departments' officers, mostly just because some states or departments failed to report for some years.

I read today that the FBI doesn't keep that stat anymore:

A variable in the data-collection process that labeled a homicide with different values—as a suspect killed while committing a crime by a police officer, for example—was removed in the early 2000s. Ever since police-involved homicides were stripped from the report, reliable information on police shootings has been hard to come by.

http://www.citylab.com/crime/2014/12/ho ... rm/383395/

[aknowledgeableperson]

In two seconds, he was ordered three times to put his hands up and then visibly made a conscious decision not to comply?

As a report I heard the order was given while they were pulling up.

Sometimes shit just happens. Another time, another place the tactics used by the police would have been different or even different officers at this time and place. Evidently this cop shouldn't have been on the force but is his act criminal?

[chaglang]

Sometimes shit just happens. Another time, another place the tactics used by the police would have been different or even different officers at this time and place.

Translation: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[grovester]

Listened to a piece on npr today about the legal hurdles to successfully indicting a police officer in these cases. The person mentioned that he did think there was incompetence in both cases.

In the real world, incompetence that leads to death should have consequences like perhaps negligent manslaughter.

[chaglang]

Maybe if this was spin as patriotic citizens making a stand against excessive tobacco taxation only to be cut down by big government stooges, the story would get more traction in conservative circles.

[KCMax]

Maybe if this was spin as patriotic citizens making a stand against excessive tobacco taxation only to be cut down by big government stooges, the story would get more traction in conservative circles.

Yea, I wonder what the response would have been had cops gunned down the guy from the Clive Bundy ranch pointing an actual real life weapon at them.

[im2kull]

Maybe if this was spin as patriotic citizens making a stand against excessive tobacco taxation only to be cut down by big government stooges, the story would get more traction in conservative circles.

Yea, I wonder what the response would have been had cops gunned down the guy from the Clive Bundy ranch pointing an actual real life weapon at them.

There's a difference between simply pointing a weapon at a cop in a show of freedom with no noticeable intent to shoot, and quickly grabbing a weapon from your pants and pointing it at cops as they show up on scene to a location with a high probability of an active shooter.

It's a good thing you're not a firearm owner if you can't distinguish between the two.

[loftguy]

As of this moment, I no longer will argue against the banning of all firearms.

[phuqueue]

100-150 policemen die each year in the country. How many of those are cases where a police officer doesn't shoot someone because they are giving them the benefit of the doubt and the criminal reaches for a gun and shoots the officer? If I'm a police officer and I'm going to a reported gun scene, that person will likely get shot if they reach into their waistband after being told to put their hands up. Some thing for hitting and charging an officer. And refusing being cuffed for questioning means a take to the ground.

In 2013, 27 officers were killed "feloniously" and the average going back to the 90s is ~50 per year. This is the lowest in decades -- and as a percentage of the total number of police officers out there, possibly the lowest in history.

But this is beside the point. A police officer's duty is to protect the public, not himself. That's not to say that he can't defend himself against a real threat, of course. But he has to be prepared to face some level of potentially mortal danger, it's right there in the job description. Leaping out of the car and gunning down a twelve year old in one swift, two-second motion suggests that you're far more concerned with your own safety than you are with the other person's, which is particularly problematic when it turns out that other person never posed a real threat in the first place. To be 100% clear, I don't want anybody to be killed, ever, under any circumstances, but if a few more police officers are killed in the line of duty because they exercised a higher level of caution before employing deadly force, and this higher level of caution saves the lives of people like Tamir Rice, that seems like a worthwhile trade off to me. Police officers willingly go into what they know is a dangerous line of work. Tamir Rice was just a child.

As a report I heard the order was given while they were pulling up.

Sometimes shit just happens. Another time, another place the tactics used by the police would have been different or even different officers at this time and place. Evidently this cop shouldn't have been on the force but is his act criminal?

If it was your child, I very much doubt you would shrug it off as "shit happens."

There's a difference between simply pointing a weapon at a cop in a show of freedom with no noticeable intent to shoot, and quickly grabbing a weapon from your pants and pointing it at cops as they show up on scene to a location with a high probability of an active shooter.

First, no, there's not. To quote the illustrious sage im2kull, "Plus pointing a gun (Real or fake) that police believe to be real at a cop, will get you shot. Why are we even debating this?"

Second, your description of what Tamir Rice did is, once again, completely incorrect. There is literally video of this, which I have already linked to in this very thread. He might have reached for his fake gun just before he was shot, but given the low frame rate of the video and how quickly everything unfolded, this is not even 100% clear. If he was reaching for it, he might have meant to show them that it wasn't even real. We'll never know because they shot him down in two seconds. He never pointed it at them because he was on the ground before he even touched it.

Third, "high probability of an active shooter"? Get the fuck out of here. They knew he hadn't fired a shot, because if he had fired a shot, they'd have been told that shots were fired. The call was on somebody walking around with a gun, not somebody walking around firing a gun. It might not be hard for a "potential" shooter to become an active shooter, but as I said before, the fact that no shots had been fired is something that should have been considered as they assessed the potential threat they faced. You in fact are implicitly acknowledging this yourself, by throwing in this bullshit about an "active shooter." Twist the facts to justify the killing.

[beautyfromashes]

Do we really have to spell this out?

How not to get shot by police:
1. Never flee from police.
2. Avoid any sudden movements.
3. Do what you're told, and do it slowly.
4. Do not talk.
5. Let yourself be handcuffed.

[pash]

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[beautyfromashes]

Squint a bit and those look like instructions for interacting with a hungry grizzly bear.

Or, a dominatrix.

[aknowledgeableperson]

If it was your child, I very much doubt you would shrug it off as "shit happens."

It's hard to say what one would experience if something like that happened. However I always told my son, and daughter, that they are responsible for their actions so if something bad happened to them as a result of their actions be prepared for the consequences and sometimes those consequences are greater than your actions. So in light of that advice if something bad happened to them as a result of their actions I too would have to accept the consequences. Another bit of advice was don't play with guns, real or realistic toy-like.

At the same time if something like this did happen to a child or grandchild of mine I would try to make it a start of something positive, or as Obama would say a teachable moment. Not saying I wouldn't be hurting but to be filled with hate just isn't my nature.

I don't think a big majority of these officers start their day saying to themselves "I hope today is the day I get a chance to shoot a n***** without a gun." Law enforcement agencies need to do a better job of evaluating candidates before hiring and while employed. And do a better job of training and retraining, much like people in the medical professions that have to participate in continuing education. Maybe have statewide or national standards of police officers and their training. Pushing for something like this just might be my way of turning a bad incident into something good.

So yes shit happens. What really counts is what do you do after it happens.

[mean]

As of this moment, I no longer will argue against the banning of all firearms.

I'm having a very hard time coming up with rational reasons not to adopt the same view. I don't think it is practical or politically feasible now or perhaps ever, but I can't imagine how any potential negative outcomes from banning all firearms could be worse for more people than not banning all firearms. Even if the far-right's worst dystopian masturbatory fantasy tyranny were to engulf the USA, how is it going to be better for people to fight back against them ISIS or Hamas-style, with bloodbaths in the streets of every city, than to simply be subjugated? Being subjugated sucks, but I'm willing to bet that living every day in a warzone, having gun battles in the streets and your cities shelled and missiles fired at them sucks worse. This is why I don't understand the, "They'll take my gun from my cold, dead hand!" set. Because yes, that is in fact precisely what they will do, if they so choose. And how exactly is it better for you to be dead? "At least I died free!" Well, good for you, but imo you're an idiot. I'd rather be alive with a chance to escape or work to correct the conditions causing my subjugation than be dead.

(And I'm a gun hobbyist that normally argues in favor of the second amendment, in case anyone's keeping score.)

[beautyfromashes]

^^^ 600 people die in America each year masturbating.

[beautyfromashes]

Even if the far-right's worst dystopian masturbatory fantasy tyranny were to engulf the USA, how is it going to be better for people to fight back against them ISIS or Hamas-style, with bloodbaths in the streets of every city, than to simply be subjugated?

A true patriot right there. Our founding fathers and soldiers who fought the Nazis, communists and Japanese would be so proud!

[mean]

I'm just trying to be objective and rational, and in doing so I concluded I would rather be a woman living in Saudi Arabia or even a North Korean than anyone living in Gaza or ISISland. Shit, how is what I'm saying any different than what you just posted about not being shot by police? Completely submit to their authority, even if they are being unjust or violating your rights. Let them subjugate you, because it's better than the alternative of being dead. I'm applying the exact same logic you just used to create the exact same outcome: avoid being shot by armed representatives of the government. Invoking patriotic appeals to emotion doesn't change my long-considered conclusion.

[grovester]

You're right, that is the America I know and love.

Do we really have to spell this out?

How not to get shot by police:
1. Never flee from police.
2. Avoid any sudden movements.
3. Do what you're told, and do it slowly.
4. Do not talk.
5. Let yourself be handcuffed.

[phuqueue]

Do we really have to spell this out?

How not to get shot by police:
1. Never flee from police.
2. Avoid any sudden movements.
3. Do what you're told, and do it slowly.
4. Do not talk.
5. Let yourself be handcuffed.

A revised, more accurate list:
1. Be white

If it was your child, I very much doubt you would shrug it off as "shit happens."

It's hard to say what one would experience if something like that happened. However I always told my son, and daughter, that they are responsible for their actions so if something bad happened to them as a result of their actions be prepared for the consequences and sometimes those consequences are greater than your actions. So in light of that advice if something bad happened to them as a result of their actions I too would have to accept the consequences. Another bit of advice was don't play with guns, real or realistic toy-like.

God I'm sorry I do keep forgetting that it's always the victim's fault, my bad.

At the same time if something like this did happen to a child or grandchild of mine I would try to make it a start of something positive, or as Obama would say a teachable moment. Not saying I wouldn't be hurting but to be filled with hate just isn't my nature.

You think Michael Brown's or Tamir Rice's or Eric Garner's families are "filled with hate"? Or can you just not tell the difference between that and justifiable anger and sorrow?

But hey, it's very big of you that if your child or grandchild were killed by an overeager and unqualified cop, it would just be water under the bridge for you, a "teachable moment." Hey, it sucks, but shit happens, and at least we all learned a valuable lesson! Well, except the dead kid, he didn't have the opportunity to learn anything, but his sacrifice will enrich all the rest of us!

I don't think a big majority of these officers start their day saying to themselves "I hope today is the day I get a chance to shoot a n***** without a gun." Law enforcement agencies need to do a better job of evaluating candidates before hiring and while employed. And do a better job of training and retraining, much like people in the medical professions that have to participate in continuing education. Maybe have statewide or national standards of police officers and their training. Pushing for something like this just might be my way of turning a bad incident into something good.

So yes shit happens. What really counts is what do you do after it happens.

Sure they don't get to work in the morning telling each other that they hope to be the next Darren Wilson. That's because the problem here has never been an active hatred of black people by the police, it's more like a callous disregard for the value of their lives. Former cops themselves will attest to this, eg "One of my white fellow officers once told me that if he saw a white individual with a gun, he took extra care for himself and the individual. When he saw a black individual with a gun, he took care only for himself." And while stories like that are obviously anecdotal, the fact that blacks vastly outnumber whites as victims of police killings -- and even beyond that, the well documented racial disparities riddling our entire criminal justice system -- lends support to the assertion that such anecdotes are not isolated incidents.

I'm just trying to be objective and rational, and in doing so I concluded I would rather be a woman living in Saudi Arabia or even a North Korean than anyone living in Gaza or ISISland. Shit, how is what I'm saying any different than what you just posted about not being shot by police? Completely submit to their authority, even if they are being unjust or violating your rights. Let them subjugate you, because it's better than the alternative of being dead. I'm applying the exact same logic you just used to create the exact same outcome: avoid being shot by armed representatives of the government. Invoking patriotic appeals to emotion doesn't change my long-considered conclusion.

Unarmed black people should always submit to state authority to avoid summary execution, but white freedom fighters should die before giving into tyranny -- didn't you even know that much??? Luckily, under these rules nobody has to die -- black people will give in and live on, and white people will never actually be threatened by tyranny and will therefore never have to die fighting it. Win/win!

Wellllllll, this assumes that Darren Wilson's bizarre account is accurate, because otherwise we must confront the possibility that Michael Brown in fact tried to surrender and was still killed. Not that this matters for any of us!