Gay marriage

[FangKC]

It's not a fair argument to make that children do better in a household with a male and female parent.

Studies may show that. However, studies may not take into account all the variations of child-rearing. Putting one single exception into a comparison with another single exception doesn't reflect reality.

Children in this country are reared in a variety of situations. Single parent (mother), single parent (father)--whether by divorce or death, two grandparents, single grandparent (both male and female), shared households (single parent and grandparent, single parent and aunt/uncle) (single grandparent, aunt/uncle), gay single parent, two gay parents. There are even children who have a gay mother and a gay father who don't live together.

Sometimes it doesn't matter so much what the combination is, but the level of education and resources the household has, and the support network.

Sometimes it more a matter of the skills of a parent. Some people are better at raising children that others.

There are plenty of examples of bad parenting by a heterosexual mother and father--especially if there is subtance abuse/alcoholism in the family, or a history of physical abuse and violence.

Child-rearing should be taken on a case-by-case basis.

Repetitive breeding by a couple of substance abuser/violent parents should not trump the parenting rights of two functional adults with resources and who are nuturing and educated.

Marriage is also an economic union that isn't necessarily based on sexual activity, or reproduction. There are plenty of heterosexual marriages that have happened that were necessarily based on these criterion.

Straight men and women are allowed to marry death-row inmates, or lifers, in prison without a sexual relationship or hope of having children. Nor it this an economic union in most cases.

[KCMax]

It's not a fair argument to make that children do better in a household a male and female parent.

Studies may show that. However, studies may not take into account all the variations of child-rearing. Putting one single exception into a comparison with another single exception doesn't reflect reality.

Children in this country are reared in a variety of situations. Single parent (mother), single parent (father)--whether by divorce or death, two grandparents, single grandparent (both male and female), shared households (single parent and grandparent, single parent and aunt/uncle) (single grandparent, aunt/uncle), gay single parent, two gay parents. There are even children who have a gay mother and a gay father who don't live together.

Sometimes it doesn't matter so much what the combination is, but the level of education and resources the household has, and the support network.

Sometimes it more a matter of the skills of a parent. Some people are better at raising children that others.

There are plenty of examples of bad parenting by a heterosexual mother and father--especially if there is subtance abuse/alcoholism in the family, or a history of physical abuse and violence.

Child-rearing should be taken on a case-by-case basis.

Repetitive breeding by a couple of substance abuser/violent parents should not trump the parenting rights of two functional adults with resources and who are nuturing and educated.

Marriage is also an economic union that isn't necessarily based on sexual activity, or reproduction. There are plenty of heterosexual marriages that have happened that were necessarily based on these criterion.

Straight men and women are allowed to marry death-row inmates, or lifers, in prison without a sexual relationship or hope of having children. Nor it this an economic union in most cases.

The standard (if we are to apply one) shouldn't be whether children are better off with gay parents than with a man and a woman, but whether children are better off with gay parents than in foster care. And I can't imagine too many scenarios where children are better off in foster care.

And you're right, we don't hold straight couples to this standard, why should we hold gay couples to this standard?

Also, many states already allow gay couples to adopt, so if we already allow that, wouldn't you want them to be in stable marriages?

[KCMax]

Missouri man arrested at hospital for refusing to leave gay partner

I get the liberals that are rooting for the SC to make gay marriage legal, but only in states that approve it so there isn't a backlash in red states, but man, it still sucks for gay couple in states like MO and KS that won't legalize gay marriage for decades.

[chaglang]

Bleep that. What kind of a backlash would produce a situation worse that one where homosexuals can't marry and can be fired for their sexual orientation? I can't think of a single instance where the "let's bring people along slowly" approach was useful. Americans historically haven't extended rights unless they absolutely have to, and keeping a low profile gives the impression that the issue isn't a priority. The polling is moving steadily in favor of marriage equality. Why not ramp up the pressure and give the issue an air of inevitability?

[loftguy]

Leadership often involves taking people where they don't want to go.

For the good of all and to make right that which is wrong.

Again, I am a recovering bigot. I had equal disdain for gays, people with darker skin, religious groups, rich people, poorer people, fereners. It was a learned but ultimately unsupportable position.

Not everyone is going to have the life opportunities that I had in order to learn a new perspective, without significant change being made for them in spite of their deeply held positions.

[AllThingsKC]

If President Obama mandated that hospitals must give same-sex couples access in hospitals like this in 2010, then how does this hospital have a leg to stand on?

[mean]

No idea. If it were a male/female couple, and the hospitalized patient's family didn't want the spouse there and/or the spouse was being disruptive somehow, would they be allowed to stay? I obviously have no idea what went on at the hospital in question, just wondering aloud.

[aknowledgeableperson]

If President Obama mandated that hospitals must give same-sex couples access in hospitals like this in 2010, then how does this hospital have a leg to stand on?

It may be that the couple is not married.

[grovester]

One of the major issues with same sex couples, no access in hospitals, particularly when the "family" did not approve of the relationship. Not sure what Obama allegedly mandated, this is a state issue.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Of course this might be a common problem in that the article is not telling the whole story. How did the partner behave? From what I take from the hospital's statement there might have been a disturbance started by the partner, look at the language being used. And it appears there is just one side to this story. What about the other side besides the hospital's statement? Why not interview who asked him to leave?
There appears to be much inaccurate reporting. Many websites report a restraining order but the hospital states there isn't one. And from what I can tell he is able to visit.

[chaglang]

Of course I have no idea, but I'm guessing the disturbance came after the hospital asked him to leave at the behest of the other man's parents/siblings, and despite the fact that the partner has power of attorney. I can't say I would keep my cool in the same situation.

I agree, there seem to be a lot of holes in the story. It also seems dumb for the hospital to boot the person who has the legal authority to make decisions for the patient.

[KCMax]

Hospital response:

This was an issue of disruptive and belligerent behavior by the visitor that affected patient care. The hospital’s response followed the same policies that would apply to any individual engaged in this behavior in a patient care setting and was not in any way related to the patient’s or the visitor’s sexual orientation or marital status. This visitor created a barrier for us to care for the patient. Attempts were made to deescalate the situation. Unfortunately, we had no choice but to involve security and the Kansas City MO Police Department.

His version is that his partner's family didn't want him there, and he got upset that the hospital didn't recognize him as the partner that should make decisions for the patient. The hospital does not seem to deny this, but does claim they did kick him out because he was acting belligerant.

Under ACA, patients are supposed to be able to determine who can visit them.

[chaglang]

Denying that it had anything to do with sexual orientation is technically correct. But blaming someone for being angry that they are being discriminated against is duplicitous.

[aknowledgeableperson]

We are getting one side of the story, in that he was asked to leave because he was not family, that is a gay partner. Now, look at the other side and see, just see, if the hospital was justified in its actions. Let's say a parent is visiting a son in the hospital, having some quiet time that is needed. The son's partner shows up and another family member, who knows of conflict between the parent and partner, asks the partner to wait until the parent is finished with the visit. Instead of waiting quietly the partner initiates a confrontation and security is called to handle the situation.

In other words, there is more to this story than what has been published so far.

Given that there has been only one reporting of the story (the others being from blogs repeating the initial story) my take is the victim(?) in this story is not telling the whole truth.

[chaglang]

Look, all we know is what's been reported in the news. And I agree that the story feels incomplete. But if you want to wait for the rest of the story to come out, why not just do that instead of creating a totally fictional scenario to portray the partner as behaving completely unreasonably?

[pash]

.

[mean]

Look, all we know is what's been reported in the news. And I agree that the story feels incomplete. But if you want to wait for the rest of the story to come out, why not just do that instead of creating a totally fictional scenario to portray the partner as behaving completely unreasonably?

How is that any different than creating a totally fictional scenario which portrays the partner as behaving completely reasonably, which you did just a few posts ago?

I'm guessing the disturbance came after the hospital asked him to leave at the behest of the other man's parents/siblings, and despite the fact that the partner has power of attorney. I can't say I would keep my cool in the same situation.

How is that not the exact same thing you're asking AKP not to do?

[KCMax]

The daughter of Roger (the guy arrested) gives her account:

http://www.weareatheism.com/arrested-at ... ners-hand/

http://americablog.com/2013/04/intervie ... l-bed.html

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/04/1 ... ?mobile=nc

I guess this is just one more side of the story without hearing the cops side of the story or the hospital's or Lee's, but its pretty detailed and does not make the hospital, family or KCPD look good at all.

[chaglang]

Look, all we know is what's been reported in the news. And I agree that the story feels incomplete. But if you want to wait for the rest of the story to come out, why not just do that instead of creating a totally fictional scenario to portray the partner as behaving completely unreasonably?

How is that any different than creating a totally fictional scenario which portrays the partner as behaving completely reasonably, which you did just a few posts ago?

I'm guessing the disturbance came after the hospital asked him to leave at the behest of the other man's parents/siblings, and despite the fact that the partner has power of attorney. I can't say I would keep my cool in the same situation.

How is that not the exact same thing you're asking AKP not to do?

Fair point. I was guessing at a backstory based on what we know from the news. AKP was guessing based on what we don't know.

[mean]

I would also say that siding with the historically oppressed is probably a safer bet, I just found it amusing.