Politics

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phuqueue
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Re: Politics

Postby phuqueue » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:23 pm

"All Lives Matter" is a racist movement not because the statement "all lives matter" isn't true on its face but because that's not what the movement actually stands for. You ask whether BLM has ever stood up for people of other races who have been killed (yes: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... d-shooting http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/06/us/seneca ... index.html) but neglect to ask whether ALM has ever stood up for anybody of any race who has been killed. The proponents of All Lives Matter are advocating the status quo in which black lives don't matter, and for that matter they don't really seem to care that much about white or other lives either except in specific instances in which it suits their racist agenda. And even if that's not what you mean to say, that's what the phrase now means. But I would venture a guess that most of the people showing up at BLM rallies to argue that "all lives matter" know exactly what they're doing and deserve the hostility that is directed at them.

earthling wrote:Back to North Korea, looks like Kim J is holding off on more testing (towards Guam) for now. But with two hot heads in the picture, obviously it wouldn't take much to escalate again sooner than later. It seems there is no scenario for NK to get rid of its nuke program and eventually will be able to reach anywhere in US. Wouldn't be surprising that when US feels NK is a true threat to continental US, US eventually acts in some serious form (like invasion/bombing/assassination) and NK releases everything they have, which is clearly enough to create major global havoc on many layers.

It's like a game of hostage at this point, with no sign of any situation for NK to fully back out.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... -after-all

North Korea will never denuclearize, as the Kims have seen what has happened to others who acquiesced to Western demands. I suspect that Obama understood and the intelligence community understands this, and that "strategic patience" was more like "accepting the status quo but not publicly admitting it because that would be a PR nightmare." Frankly if we could live with a hostile Soviet Union that had the ability to completely obliterate us, we should be able to live with NK, as distasteful as it might be.

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Re: Politics

Postby shinatoo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:54 pm

I think the anger that African Americans have a white person that comes to a rally with an ALM sign is; 1. Disanginuas, as phuqueue pointed out. If he wasn't he would be marching with the BLM group, 2. Is hypocritical because now they are saying All Lives Matter when a year ago every time an African American was killed by the police that same person would say, "Oh they were probably being disrespectful", or "oh they had a prior record" or they were probably on drugs. and 3. After screaming murder by corrupt police for years and finally having evidence the white guy with the ALM sign is still trying to silence them and agitate them, instead of trying to help and be constructive.

When you are hopelessly frustrated you tend to lean toward anything you can do to get help, like shutting down the highway or setting a car on fire. And I'll tell you, if that doesn't work they will turn to something more like organized rebellion.
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Re: Politics

Postby AllThingsKC » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:52 pm

phuqueue wrote:"All Lives Matter" is a racist movement not because the statement "all lives matter" isn't true on its face but because that's not what the movement actually stands for.


I'm not taking about the ALM movement. I'm just saying BLM and the alt right don't seem to believe that all lives actually matter.

shinatoo wrote:I think the anger that African Americans have a white person that comes to a rally with an ALM sign is...


Why if it's an African American at a BLM rally holding a ALM sign?

shinatoo wrote:When you are hopelessly frustrated you tend to lean toward anything you can do to get help, like shutting down the highway or setting a car on fire. And I'll tell you, if that doesn't work they will turn to something more like organized rebellion.


Like ISIS?

Hmm... a race-based organization... frustrated that they can't get their message across... isn't above impacting (hurting?) innocent people to make sure their message is heard. That sounds dangerously close to the alt right, doesn't it?

Anyway, how does BLM measure whether or not their current tactics are working?
Last edited by AllThingsKC on Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics

Postby shinatoo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:06 pm

Yes. Like ISIS. An excellent example of a group that incubated in the hatred that oppression fostered. I'm not saying they would be right, just pointing out what we would have to deal with.

If I can't convince you with a moral argument for treating people better then I'll make a practical one.

If it's an African American? What kind of straw man diversion from your argument is that supposed to be?
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Re: Politics

Postby AllThingsKC » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:15 pm

Why would I be against treating better? Morally and practically, I believe in treating people better.

You said people probably wouldn't like a white person holding an ALM sign at a BLM rally. Ok, fine. So, I asked what if it's a black person holding an ALM sign at a BLM rally? That's not a straw man diversion from my argument. Depending on your answer, it could help my argument.
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Re: Politics

Postby AllThingsKC » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:30 pm

On a different, topic: phuqueue, you're good at explaining things, you're into politics, and you have good head on your shoulders. Do you have any specific predictions for, say the next 6 months in terms of North Korea or Trump or the political mood of the country or anything like that?

I ask because I'm trying to predict things in the next six months, and I'm usually good at predicting things, but North Korea (and Trump's reaction to various things) are such a question mark to me at this point. So I'm interested in seeing your opinion, if you have one.
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Re: Politics

Postby cityscape » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:47 pm

Sigh, I just cringe anytime I look up the latest news. How in the world is the "World's greatest orator" causing so much confusion and chaos?

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Re: Politics

Postby mean » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:49 pm

Because he has the best words, obviously.

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Re: Politics

Postby phuqueue » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:29 pm

AllThingsKC wrote:
phuqueue wrote:"All Lives Matter" is a racist movement not because the statement "all lives matter" isn't true on its face but because that's not what the movement actually stands for.


I'm not taking about the ALM movement. I'm just saying BLM and the alt right don't seem to believe that all lives actually matter.

I mean as I tried to show you with the couple of links that I found in about ten seconds of googling, BLM does in fact speak out against police violence against members of other races, so I don't think that's accurate. If you don't hear about it very often, I'd guess that it's probably because there aren't high profile police killings of unarmed white people very often. Which is kind of the whole point of emphasizing that black lives matter, because nobody seems to doubt that other lives matter.

shinatoo wrote:I think the anger that African Americans have a white person that comes to a rally with an ALM sign is...


Why if it's an African American at a BLM rally holding a ALM sign?

Because of what ALM has come to mean, I find it unlikely that this would happen. I suspect that it would still not go over well, because of what ALM has come to mean.

shinatoo wrote:When you are hopelessly frustrated you tend to lean toward anything you can do to get help, like shutting down the highway or setting a car on fire. And I'll tell you, if that doesn't work they will turn to something more like organized rebellion.


Like ISIS?

Hmm... a race-based organization... frustrated that they can't get their message across... isn't above impacting (hurting?) innocent people to make sure their message is heard. That sounds dangerously close to the alt right, doesn't it?

Anyway, how does BLM measure whether or not their current tactics are working?

Anybody lashes out violently if they're pushed far enough. The difference with the "alt right" (but we should call them what they are: Nazis) is that the "pushing" is all in their minds. I'm fond of quoting MLK on this: "a riot is the language of the unheard." But nobody in history has been more "heard" than white men. In fact, we heard them so loudly that we're stuck with their president even though somebody else won millions more votes.

AllThingsKC wrote:On a different, topic: phuqueue, you're good at explaining things, you're into politics, and you have good head on your shoulders. Do you have any specific predictions for, say the next 6 months in terms of North Korea or Trump or the political mood of the country or anything like that?

I ask because I'm trying to predict things in the next six months, and I'm usually good at predicting things, but North Korea (and Trump's reaction to various things) are such a question mark to me at this point. So I'm interested in seeing your opinion, if you have one.

The short answer is: I have no idea, and I wouldn't trust anybody else who thinks they do. But I'm down to speculate baselessly.

I doubt that anything more than continued saber rattling and occasional missile tests will happen with NK, although I'm not resoundingly confident about that. I think it's more likely that China ups the pressure (it already has in the past few days, to some extent) and that Kim's regime ultimately collapses than it is that we fight a second Korean War, but I don't think either of these scenarios is super likely and I don't think either one happens in the next six months. But if you're still getting internet in the irradiated wastelands as you read this, remember that I was "not resoundingly confident."
I think Trump's support will probably continue to erode, but he won't lose his base
I think he will continue to pursue the kinds of policies he has to date (a combination of his headline campaign promises and red meat to the religious right), with mixed at best success
I doubt we will have a government shutdown, but it's not out of the question
I doubt we will fail to raise the debt ceiling, particularly since Republicans don't care about this when a fellow Republican is president (but I have to admit that I'm morbidly curious about what will happen if we do hit the debt ceiling since it is arguably unconstitutional anyway)
My gut still says that when the budget is eventually passed, the wall won't be funded and the ACA's cost-sharing reductions will be
I think the Iran deal will ultimately collapse but I'm not sure how it will happen (Iran claims new sanctions relieve it of its obligations, Trump fails to certify Iranian compliance again, or something else)
I have literally no idea what will happen to Mueller but I think if his investigation continues it will turn up a lot of financial crimes within the Trump organization, although it could (probably will) take much longer than six months for all that to come out (I don't know whether it will turn up collusion with Russia, but Jr's eagerness to collude, as expressed in the emails that he himself released for some reason, definitely ups the odds of that in my mind)
More Confederate statues will come down

I don't know what else.

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Re: Politics

Postby AllThingsKC » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:20 pm

cityscape wrote:Sigh, I just cringe anytime I look up the latest news. How in the world is the "World's greatest orator" causing so much confusion and chaos?


But, it's the biggest and the best and the most handsome confusion and chaos the likes the world has never seen the before in the history of the world! So, there's that.

phuqueue wrote:I think Trump's support will probably continue to erode, but he won't lose his base
I think he will continue to pursue the kinds of policies he has to date (a combination of his headline campaign promises and red meat to the religious right), with mixed at best success
I doubt we will have a government shutdown, but it's not out of the question
I doubt we will fail to raise the debt ceiling, particularly since Republicans don't care about this when a fellow Republican is president (but I have to admit that I'm morbidly curious about what will happen if we do hit the debt ceiling since it is arguably unconstitutional anyway)
My gut still says that when the budget is eventually passed, the wall won't be funded and the ACA's cost-sharing reductions will be
I think the Iran deal will ultimately collapse but I'm not sure how it will happen (Iran claims new sanctions relieve it of its obligations, Trump fails to certify Iranian compliance again, or something else)
I have literally no idea what will happen to Mueller but I think if his investigation continues it will turn up a lot of financial crimes within the Trump organization, although it could (probably will) take much longer than six months for all that to come out (I don't know whether it will turn up collusion with Russia, but Jr's eagerness to collude, as expressed in the emails that he himself released for some reason, definitely ups the odds of that in my mind)
More Confederate statues will come down

I don't know what else.


Thanks. You're probably pretty accurate here. I have no idea whatsoever how the whole North Korea thing will play out. I can see it happening so many different ways.
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Re: Politics

Postby Highlander » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:56 pm

phuqueue wrote:More Confederate statues will come down



The confederate statue in KC, which I didn't even know existed, is now the subject of scorn.

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Re: Politics

Postby chingon » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:39 pm

I've known it existed for a while and always had a great deal of scorn for it, but chalked it up to the price of living in the south-lite.

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Re: Politics

Postby earthling » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:20 am

His approval did improve a bit since N Korea, probably not factoring Charlottesville yet...
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epoll ... -6179.html

This might be the best he gets as more and more of GOP turn against him.

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Re: Politics

Postby earthling » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:46 pm

Bannon out, so 11 out from Trump's White House staff. Trump's swamp draining isn't quite what he expected...

http://www.amny.com/news/politics/trump ... 1.13927826

Another barrage of tweets coming soon?

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Re: Politics

Postby Highlander » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:35 pm

earthling wrote:Bannon out, so 11 out from Trump's White House staff. Trump's swamp draining isn't quite what he expected...

http://www.amny.com/news/politics/trump ... 1.13927826

Another barrage of tweets coming soon?


My guess is this circus will end in the not too distant future with Trump leaving the white house. Unless he undergoes a complete change personality change, I don't think he will last another 6 months. The republicans have finally realized that they cannot survive as a party if Trump serves his presidency out with the same amount of ineptitude that the first few months have displayed.

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Re: Politics

Postby earthling » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:03 pm

Resignation would probably best for all but would indie moderates/lefties rather have an ineffective Trump or a more likely effective Pence with his traditional right-wing ideology? Impeachment process could be difficult and potentially bring up new risks for establishment GOP as it could split party further whereas with resignation, alt-right will more likely support ideological GOP (Pence) rather than DEM. Assassination would of course be awful on many levels - of course problems shouldn't be solved that way but also it will just drive supporters harder with Trump as their martyr, a resignation gives them less momentum and no longer on forefront of attention.

From GOP perspective, perhaps they need to find a path to Trump resignation that would feed his ego. Make Trump believe resignation is what is best for himself and give him some kind of 'out' that places blame other than himself. Find a scapegoat in GOP willing to sacrifice political career in order to get Trump out. If DEMs want impeachment/resignation they should probably back away but again would DEMs rather have an ineffective Trump who continues to harm GOP party or an effective Pence who might rebuild GOP and get another 4 years? In that sense, DEMs may not want an impeachment or resignation and let the downward spiral continue to a point (that Trump isn't ultimately too dangerous for America, like a twitter barrage towards Kim J that ends up with nukes released).
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Re: Politics

Postby grovester » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:07 pm

Dems need Trump to help win in 2018. If they can take either the senate or the house, then they can neuter Trump or Pence to a degree, until 2020.

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Re: Politics

Postby earthling » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:23 pm

Agree and if GOP starts to talk impeachment or encourage resignation, will be interesting to see how DEMs play their cards, how they approach keeping Trump in. It will get bizarre if it comes to impeachment procedure and most DEMs don't vote for it. There will probably be some DEMs who would rather see Trump out now and take the risk of competing with Pence, but it would be a risky bet that needs to be weighed with Trump potentially causing major harm to the world. DEMs in meantime need to find an effective enough leader by 2020 that can attract most moderates/indies and draw lefties to polls.

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Re: Politics

Postby grovester » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:42 pm

Probably all moot points. Whatever happens will take time, this is DC after all. We're already close enough to election 2018 that the GOP can't clean up their mess fast enough.

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Re: Politics

Postby earthling » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:44 pm

If GOP can get Trump to resign by end of year, that's enough time for Pence to rebuild party or at least align with GOP enough to become effective with his own agenda and build up for a 2020 election. But yeah, impeachment process might take too long for GOP to recover damage even if Trump impeached. Could still play out oddly if DEMs don't vote for the impeachment. Hard to see this really getting to impeachment procedures, don't see either DEMs or enough GOP to pursue it, so GOP pressuring resignation is probably their best hope.


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