Religion...

[brian89gp]

I was born into a Catholic family and am an atheist now.  Most Christian people assume that I am a devout Christian due to the lifestyle I lead, I am "too good" to not be religious.  

Thinking back on it I think I turned agnostic once I got to the age to really begin understanding it but continued to go through the motions of going to church etc until I left for college.  If I had truly thought about religion back in the day I would have probably been an atheist then but honestly back then I didn't care much about it, it was a motion I went through to make other people happy.  

I was really good being doing what was required to fit in.  I grew up in SW Missouri, not too far away from SBU (Southern Baptist University), and was routinely ridiculed for being Catholic and not Baptist.  Things got so bad that I started to lie about which church I went to just to get people off my back.  This was a place that prayers were made before sports games in the locker rooms, before any school sponsored dinner, etc.  This was less then 10 years ago too...

Now that I have had time and reasons to think about it, I am a pretty strong atheist and share the same beliefs as most others here in this thread.  While I won’t argue the fact that many of the beliefs I live by follow the fundamental beliefs of the Christian religions, they are typically the beliefs that are followed by almost all religions (more or less being a good person regardless of the circumstances).

I believe that the human brain is pre-wired to need a sense of closure in order to keep sane, once humans started to notice and look at things around them in a different light they wanted answers for questions nobody could answer.  Some people need this more then others and some not at all.  I have found though that the need for closure, a definitive answer, and general ‘guidance’ in life tends to closely follow if a person is religious or not.

As far as the question of whether religion is bad, I think it is one of the greatest things going for us humans.  Aside from all of the wars and death that tends to follow religion, think of how much worse it would be if there was none.  If I had kids, as an atheist, I would not have a problem sending them to a private religiously affiliated school.  A good education from the school, some good moral values that follow and reinforce what I would teach them at home, and teaching from me to be a open minded thinker.  If after that they want to be religious, then I would be happy for them.  (I would prefer a non-religious private school first, but a religious private school is the next best thing in my book)

*edited for formatting

[KCMax]

My dad is atheist, my mom is Christian. But I think religion is more of a community thing with her, a chance to visit with friends, be involved in the Korean-American community. I'm sure she believes, but its not like she ever admonished my dad or us for not going to church or thought we were going to hell. I stopped going at age 11. I flirted with Evangelical Christianity in college (because of who I was dating at the time), but quickly realized it wasn't for me and found I didn't believe at all.  So I'm an atheist.

My wife grew up in a Buddhist family, but went to a Christian church pretty early on. She is still a believer, although she doesn't attend church. Now that we have a child, we've decided that we may attend a Christian church while he is young (although I don't believe, I still enjoy a good sermon and feel it has a lot to teach me on the goodness of humanity), to expose him, but we'll also expose him to other religions, particularly Buddhism. At a certain age, we're not sure when, we'll probably leave it to him what he wants to to - continue attending church, attend a different religious temple or stay at home with dad and watch football.

[bahua]

I was raised Catholic, and while I can't really fully align myself with Catholicism, it's mostly because I still haven't settled into certainty enough to act as though I know all about it by adhering to a specific religion. I have little doubt that there is a God, though his/her/its nature is almost entirely unknown to me, and possibly unknowable.

That aside, it always bothers me when people attack a particular religion because of the actions of a small number of its members. Their own founding scriptures say that while we are called to avoid it, sin is part of being human. This could translate to the secular sentiment that nobody's perfect. The primary problem I see with religion is not with religion itself, but with people closing their mind and letting someone else do their thinking for them.

Bad people use religion as a tool for control over ignorant people, but i don't see that as a flaw with religion. The bad people are bad, without question, but ignorance is the real problem. Being ignorant exposes a person, and if it isn't an evangelical preacher/priest, someone else will happily take advantage.

[KCMax]

Bad people use religion as a tool for control over ignorant people, but i don't see that as a flaw with religion. The bad people are bad, without question, but ignorance is the real problem. Being ignorant exposes a person, and if it isn't an evangelical preacher/priest, someone else will happily take advantage.

Well said. Reminds me of the South Park episode where in the future religion is eliminated, and atheists wage war on which ideology of atheism to believe.

[alpha_glamourina]

I was raised Lutheran, but when I hit my tweens, it started to seem kind of tepid and passionless to me.  A lot- but not all- of the people I went to church with didn't seem spiritually motivated on any day of the week except Sunday.  It was as though they only loved Jesus on Sundays, and I didn't like that.  I also saw a lot of politicking among some of the parishoners and it really turned me off.  When I was older, I tried some evangelical churches- including an A.M.E., but those were too lively for me.  Though I must say, the gospel music at the A.M.E. church absolutely rocked, and I do miss that.  Oh, and the Lutheran church on Westport Rd. over by Cupini's was actually pretty good, but I don't live in that area any longer so i'm sure I won't be going there any time soon. 

These days, I don't go to church at all, but I think sometimes i'd like to.  I'd like to be involved in a church that was more into Jesus Christ and his teachings, bearing good fruit in the community, and less into religiosity.  And not shoving God down people's throats.  I could be wrong, but I don't think people are open to the holy spirit when you're bullying them with it.  But, if someone wants to know about my faith, I don't have a problem sharing with them. 

[mean]

As far as atheism, I don't necessarily believe there are many TRUE atheists. I certainly believe that many who have said they were atheists don't die as atheists. I believe that there are many agnostics as well as those who are just plain apathetic about church and religion in general.

I suspect you may be referring to someone with the attitude of, "I actively believe with certainty there is no God," as a true atheist. We in the club refer to that as strong atheism. For my part, I just don't believe in any of it because I have never seen anything that convinced me it had any chance of actually being real. Even so, I wouldn't say I am 100% certain there is no God. Just 99.99999999999%--a small difference numerically, but a reasonable difference in opinion. I accept the possibility that I could be wrong and I'm going to burn in hell for eternity, but at least I can live with the clear conscience of not being a hypocrite and not being intellectually dishonest with myself. I trust that on the off chance there actually is a God who loves me, he'll understand. After all, he'd have been the one who created my brain to be incapable of believing extraordinary claims without seeing extraordinary evidence, right? I like to think he'd at least give me a high five for not being a hypocrite before pulling the lever that shoots me into the lake of fire.

These days, I don't go to church at all, but I think sometimes i'd like to. 

Perhaps interestingly, I have been thinking about attending church as well. Not because I have any intention of converting, but because it's a great way to get involved in community and charity work. As the school year begins, I find myself concerned about things like whether the kids in my neighborhood will be able to afford school supplies. As we head toward winter, I'm concerned with how many people in my neighborhood won't be able to afford their heat bill. Things like that. And they're not going to come knocking on my door for help, they're most likely going to seek out assistance from a church.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Positive thoughts alone can heal.  Placebos can heal.  Prayer can be a mechanism for positive thinking, but thinking it's interaction with a supernatural force to serve your needs smells very similar to superstitions rooted in mythology.

An answer one would expect from a non-believer.  Not being critical, just offering a thought.

There are many who believe that science and religion cannot exist together.  I am not alone for there are others who do believe they can co-exist.  One can accept the idea of evolution and also believe that there is some god-like being that helps guide it along.  (Of course, we can all be cells in some living giant organism.)  Neither science nor religion has all of the answers, or one could say neither has discovered all of the answers at this time.


True, positive thoughts and placebos can heal.  At the same time, though, if they are combined with prayer who can actually discount some sort of devine intervention?  Yes, a non-believer can but at the same time a believer can believe.  One can be an atheist or an agnostic and more power to them.  One can be a believer also.  Great minds in the past and current the world over have accepted some sort of devine being so if I choose to believe than I am in good company.  But for believers to say that those who don't believe will go to hell (or something similar) are wrong.  For me, only God knows for sure who goes to heaven or hell and if there is a heaven or a hell (if they exist) one will find out where one is going when he/she dies.

To sum it up I could say that I cannot prove there is a god but by faith I do have a belief in a god.  I may not have all of the answers since if I did why continue life since life is a journey to discover answers.

[beautyfromashes]

So, being an atheist, what drives your morality?  

[KCMax]

So, being an atheist, what drives your morality? 

The golden rule.

[beautyfromashes]

The golden rule.

Why follow the golden rule?

[aknowledgeableperson]

I am a believer but I can answer for the nons with "Why not".  One can be good or moral for goodness sake.

[KCMax]

Why follow the golden rule?

Because  I have compassion for my fellow man.

Surely you're not suggesting the ONLY reason Christians are nice to people is because they fear God's wrath? Most Christians I've met seem to be driven by a similar compassion for humanity, not because they wish to avoid hell.

[bahua]

I was raised under the (excellent, imo) belief that we treat others with respect and compassion because our actions are guided by love. Love for all things in creation.

[KCMax]

Furthermore, simply because one doesn't believe in the existence of a deity, doesn't mean one can't accept the supposed teachings of that religion. I think the Bible is chock full of great lessons, and while I may not accept that a burning bush talked to Moses, or that laying down with a man is an abomination, I can certainly accept that turning the other cheek is the right thing to do and that looking out for the meek is compassionate. I may not be bound to those lessons due to a fear of God's wrath, but I can accept them because I believe in them. And perhaps that makes those beliefs all the stronger.

[OPIchabod]

A couple of people have touched on these concepts, but I've adopted the following thoughts on religion:

1) I deliniate between religion and spirituality. I consider myself a very spiritual person, but I don't need religion to be spiritual.

2) Religion, however, does serve a purpose: "Let religion manage the affairs of the people, and let government manage the affiars of the nation.

Unfortunately, we have two political platforms: Democrats want the government to also manage the affiars of the people and Republicans want religion to manage the affairs of the nation.

And as an agnostic, my morality is also driven by the imperative: If what I do can't be done by everyone else, then I shouldn't do it.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Surely you're not suggesting the ONLY reason Christians are nice to people is because they fear God's wrath? Most Christians I've met seem to be driven by a similar compassion for humanity, not because they wish to avoid hell.

That's pretty good.  I was taught that if you did do things to avoid hell then that was wrong.  You are not suppose to do things (or not do things) because you fear God but you do the right things because of your love of God and through that you love of humanity.

[mean]

True, positive thoughts and placebos can heal.  At the same time, though, if they are combined with prayer who can actually discount some sort of devine intervention?  

You can't discount it--or count it--because you can't measure it. If people want to believe prayer helps, or even if it just makes them feel better, by all means let them pray. But I do get a little annoyed when people do things like, use modern technology to get fertility treatments and have a litter of children and then say, "We are so grateful to God for this! We prayed and prayed for six years!" It just boggles the mind. If God wanted you to have kids, why wouldn't he just, you know, fix your uterus with magic or whatever, without putting you $500,000 in debt? Why make it take six years? Why involve doctors and science at all? At least give credit where credit is due: science, technology, and doctors; and maybe while you're at it, take into consideration that it may have been God's will that you not have children, and you have just spent a ton of money and several years to defy God.

Anyway, sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine. Interestingly, there was a study recently that indicated prayer had no effect on the mortality of heart patients. The researches had Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Buddhist prayer groups pray for various groups of patients, and one group of patients had no prayer group. They all died or got better at the same rate.

So, being an atheist, what drives your morality?  

I like the Golden Rule answer, but it seems like more than that to me. I just love life, I love people, I love nature. What about that requires any kind of religion? And I take issue with the popular notion in religion that humans are all bad, evil, dirty sinful things that must be scared into being nice to each other by some manner of invisible man-in-the-sky. I think people are generally good. Ignorant, often, but generally good-hearted.

You are not suppose to do things (or not do things) because you fear God but you do the right things because of your love of God and through that you love of humanity.

And if you don't believe in God, you might just love humanity because it is pretty freaking awesome that we exist, are self-aware, and can have this conversation. As far as anyone knows, that is completely unique in the universe and worth trying to preserve, in my opinion.

[beautyfromashes]

Furthermore, simply because one doesn't believe in the existence of a deity, doesn't mean one can't accept the supposed teachings of that religion. I think the Bible is chock full of great lessons, and while I may not accept that a burning bush talked to Moses, or that laying down with a man is an abomination, I can certainly accept that turning the other cheek is the right thing to do and that looking out for the meek is compassionate. I may not be bound to those lessons due to a fear of God's wrath, but I can accept them because I believe in them. And perhaps that makes those beliefs all the stronger.

So, in Jesus' case, you would have to believe that he was a deranged idiot for saying he was God but you'll accept his teachings.  Doesn't make sense to me.

I guess I understand that some peoples belief or nonbelief has very little to do with how they live their lives.  For me, I would be a totally different person if I didn't have belief in God.  

[Maitre D]

This is a serious question.  I am simply not a religious person at all.  I have never gotten into it and even though I did attend a Catholic elementary school in urban KCMO for a few years, I didn’t really get that much exposure to religion.

My wife is into enough that she wants our kids to be involved and I respect that and think it’s a good thing for the most part to raise your kids with some religious morals etc.

Women account for nearly 2/3 of church attendance these days.  


There are many explanations for this, one of the best is that hte church is now feminized.   Every freaking activity centers around women & kids, and the Biblical teachings of love-peace-forgiveness tend to appeal to women more than men (who favor lessons on "action" and decision-making).

[KCMax]

So, in Jesus' case, you would have to believe that he was a deranged idiot for saying he was God but you'll accept his teachings.  Doesn't make sense to me.

Its about the message, not the messenger. I couldn't care less about Jesus of Nazareth's biography or if he believe he was God or a giant chicken. Its his message that matters.