Religion...

[kcmetro]

I believe we all stem from the same mind that created this gigantic mess of an insane existence.  Therefore, I would never want to harm another human because I would be harming a part of the whole which is "I" or "we".  If I didn't believe this, I might be a real son-of-a-bitch.  Also, I try to forgive every single thing that happens in my life...good or bad...because I don't see it as being "real".  So if my car gets totaled in a wreck, I'd just laugh. Flunk a test? Laugh about it...not a big deal. Nothing riding on it.

To me, life is but an illusion that was created by a fearful mind which is afraid of being one with all.  The illusion of separation is everywhere. It's what our entire universe seems to be based upon. Look how spread out everything is...we all seem to be alone in our little galaxies, solar systems, worlds, nations, bodies, and minds.  All of our problems stem from the illusion of being separate from the whole.  But be at peace brothers and sisters....we are all one! Even if we root for different Big 12 teams! 

[ignatius]

So, being an atheist, what drives your morality?  

So, being an atheist, what drives your morality?  

Only theists have morals?  Yikes.  Much to learn my young padawan.  Look at Buddhism for starters.  No deities, highly moral driven for the sake of humanity and self actualization.  Next look at humanism.  But I don't really think in terms of dogmatic morals.  Tend to think in terms of consequences to actions.  Morals tend to be fixed, the latter considers things on a case by case basis and in context to the situation.  Mo betta approach in my life journey so far.

I can understand someone following the teaching of leaders of the past that have benefits for humanity.  But to imply they are connected to supernatural forces is another matter.  Early humanity often attributed good ideas to the pop culture supernatural force of the time as it was easier to get buy in from the masses.  Moreover, most ideas in many religions were borrowed from other or previous religions.  In the case of Christianity, so many ideas were borrowed from Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Mithra - many others.  Many religions well before Christianity had concepts of virgin births, resurrection, saviors, son of gods, etc.  Do you realize how pagan it is to worship in front of an altar?

[Maitre D]

So, in Jesus' case, you would have to believe that he was a deranged idiot for saying he was God but you'll accept his teachings.  Doesn't make sense to me.

It's CS Lewis' classic  "Liar Lunatic Lord" question.    ANd it's a very good way to prevent those who wish to downgrade Jesus into some sort of good man, who was nothing more than that.


Good men don't call themselves the Son of God.   That's either lying, or lunacy.  

[kcmetro]

It's CS Lewis' classic  "Liar Lunatic Lord" question.    ANd it's a very good way to prevent those who wish to downgrade Jesus into some sort of good man, who was nothing more than that.


Good men don't call themselves the Son of God.   That's either lying, or lunacy.  

I thought you believed that Jesus was the "son of God".

[KCMax]

It's CS Lewis' classic  "Liar Lunatic Lord" question.    ANd it's a very good way to prevent those who wish to downgrade Jesus into some sort of good man, who was nothing more than that.


Good men don't call themselves the Son of God.  That's either lying, or lunacy. 

Why is that? Have you never met someone who said something absolutely batshit crazy, but in the next sentence said something you absolutely agreed with? It happens on a daily basis on this forum.

[beautyfromashes]

Only theists have morals?  Yikes.  Much to learn my young padawan.  Look at Buddhism for starters.

Buddists are basically theists.  They believe in the reincarnation of a master who has broken the wheel of death.  Can't get more God-like than that.  Atheism is a totally different monster that I've never understood.  To believe in...nothing.  It just all ends.  Seems depressing.

[aknowledgeableperson]

But I do get a little annoyed when people do things like, use modern technology to get fertility treatments and have a litter of children and then say, "We are so grateful to God for this! We prayed and prayed for six years!" It just boggles the mind. If God wanted you to have kids, why wouldn't he just, you know, fix your uterus with magic or whatever, without putting you $500,000 in debt? Why make it take six years? Why involve doctors and science at all?

Not for all but there are some who do believe that God is working through the doctors to fix whatever is wrong for whatever reason.

And one might as well throw out that we are what we are because of God.  Without God we would be just like other animals in the world and God has guided the human development through the ages.

Anyway, we can go on and on and not change the other's mind (which I don't believe is the purpose of this) but at least I can say there are two sides to the argument about god.

[Maitre D]

Why is that? Have you never met someone who said something absolutely batshit crazy, but in the next sentence said something you absolutely agreed with? It happens on a daily basis on this forum.

There are certainly those instances.   I'd argue nearly everyone is capable of *some* good acts in his or her life.   But I'd have trouble taking someone seroiusly if he had major personal problems in life.  

And I'm 99% sure you'd disregard much of the good if you found out the guy was just sent to a loonie bin for sorcery.

[Maitre D]

I thought you believed that Jesus was the "son of God".

I do.  Enough so, to call myself Xian altho there's 15% of me that holds out the possibilty there is no God.  I don't see how anyone can be 100% Theistic or A-Theistic (the only 2 choices a human has). 

For that, I don't ever preach my views to others.  Who made me the arbiter of truth?

[ignatius]

Buddists are basically theists.  They believe in the reincarnation of a master who has broken the wheel of death.  Can't get more God-like than that.  Atheism is a totally different monster that I've never understood.  To believe in...nothing.  It just all ends.  Seems depressing.

I believe in people.  I believe that the world is round even though I didn't go around it myself.  I belief there is a place called China though I've never been there.  There's a difference between accepting things based on many reasonable sources that can be cross-reference in many ways.  But we are also capable of superstition and fictional ideas and there are good reasons to reject superstitions or differentiate fictional ideas.  Do you believe that thunder is anger of the gods?  There is good reason to reject it, especially as our knowledge of natural forces grow.

I don't know too many depressed non-theists come to think of it.  I know of many depressed people who have such dependencies.  Being comfortable with oneself is not directly related to whether you are into supernatural forces or not.

[beautyfromashes]

I don't ever preach my views to others.   Who made me the arbiter of truth?

I'm going to remember this for some of the other threads you post in. 

[GRID]

This is all very interesting.  Thank you for all the replies.

I guess I'm an atheist, I don't know.  I also don't know if I'm a democrat or republican (lean more democrat).  I just don't pick a side very well I guess.

Either way, I'm married into a family that has a lot of rural/religious background and it's been a bit odd for me.

I just think life is too short to spend it worshipping something or somebody that you don't even know exists.  And I hate the "two sides" of religious people.  They can be very hard to read.

I hope my kids can figure this out on their own.  I just hope they don't get too caught up in it because it can really take over your life in a hurry.

[brian89gp]

So, being an atheist, what drives your morality?  

Being a (fill in the blank religion), what drives your morality?  If you are religious, are you a moral person out of fear or are you a moral person because you believe and follow the fundamentals of your religion?  Most religions have an underlying idea that you should be kind, just, fair, and forgiving to others including those who would spit in your face.

I choose to believe in that idea.  I choose to help those around me, to be honest and moral, to be a good person.  I choose to believe in the good in people and to forgive the bad.  I just choose not to believe in a god or supernatural powers.

[Maitre D]

I'm going to remember this for some of the other threads you post in. 

We can empirically prove that Kansas is a top-5 basketball progam.  We can't prove religion.


Hope that helps you.

[beautyfromashes]

Being a (fill in the blank religion), what drives your morality?  

My morality is driven by my belief that God has given a perfect example of how to live and my job is to emulate it.

[GRID]

This is a good post:

I was raised Catholic, and while I can't really fully align myself with Catholicism, it's mostly because I still haven't settled into certainty enough to act as though I know all about it by adhering to a specific religion. I have little doubt that there is a God, though his/her/its nature is almost entirely unknown to me, and possibly unknowable.

That aside, it always bothers me when people attack a particular religion because of the actions of a small number of its members. Their own founding scriptures say that while we are called to avoid it, sin is part of being human. This could translate to the secular sentiment that nobody's perfect. The primary problem I see with religion is not with religion itself, but with people closing their mind and letting someone else do their thinking for them.

Bad people use religion as a tool for control over ignorant people, but i don't see that as a flaw with religion. The bad people are bad, without question, but ignorance is the real problem. Being ignorant exposes a person, and if it isn't an evangelical preacher/priest, someone else will happily take advantage.

But so is this...

I've always been curious why people believe what they believe from an anthropological perspective, that is through cross-cultural comparisons and understanding history of humankind.

We are sentient beings with incredibly powerful imaginations.  Early humanity was driven by superstition more than understanding of the natural world.  As our understanding of nature increases, the supernatural explanations make less sense.  To protect supernatural explanations is to protect a belief system rather than to understand.  Early thinkers were bounded by beliefs that were usually not allowed to be challenged.  Religion still works in those boundaries.  If anyone really wants to understand, they would have to be willing to completely let go of what they believe.  Most could not do that.

Do believers really think that prayers will conjure up supernatural forces that will impact their lives as they wish?  It seems so childish.  If they are out there, they are not very effectively communicating with us.  The concept of supernatural forces comes from needs that aren't being met.  Concepts like hell come from mankind's desire for justice.  Even the concept of afterlife is clearly just a superstition.  But it's broadly accepted because it happened so early in humanity.  If you look at other cultures and their superstitions, it becomes more obvious that the culture you come from is no different.

But most people are not able to step outside the confines of their learned culture.  Belief in supernatural things can be a very effective placebo for coping with life for most people, especially those easily influenced, and they don't want to think their existence will end.

I think in terms of natural forces.  The power of nature is incredible and has produced amazing things over billions of years, including us.  Most people do not understand the vastness of geological time and what power nature has given enough time.  As amazing as it is, nature is not a subject for worshiping.  Appreciating with gratitude, yes, but worshiping serves no purpose.  Our understanding of nature allows us to manipulate it to our needs (for better or worse).

Early humans also found it easier to attribute ideas to supernatural forces in order to manage society.  It was easier to attribute ideas (such as 10 commandments) to the pop culture supernatural force of the time than to imply a group dictates to the masses.  This happened all throughout humanity (in addition to dictatorship).  Constantine was the ultimate master of it.  Christianity would have become a dead cult without him.  The only difference between a cult and a religion is that a cult has no political power.  Constantine gave Christianity that power and the cult survived.  It thrived because it's one of the few early religions that you don't have to be born into.  It ultimately thrived globally partly because it was forced on others.


 

[beautyfromashes]

Thanks for the conversation, Grid.  Very interesting.

[KCMax]

There are certainly those instances.  I'd argue nearly everyone is capable of *some* good acts in his or her life.  But I'd have trouble taking someone seroiusly if he had major personal problems in life. 

And I'm 99% sure you'd disregard much of the good if you found out the guy was just sent to a loonie bin for sorcery.

The message isn't compelling BECAUSE Jesus said it. The message is compelling because of its own content. The messenger is completely irrelevant. Britney Spears could say it and I would agree with it.

[Maitre D]

The message isn't compelling BECAUSE Jesus said it. The message is compelling because of its own content. The messenger is completely irrelevant. Britney Spears could say it and I would agree with it.

Guess I'm not following your point then.  I don't know of anyone who would sit in a church pew to listen to the good things Brittany Spears taught.  The notion of 'credibility' exists in most people's minds.  A bad messenger can and does, hurt the message.

[KCMax]

Guess I'm not following your point then.  I don't know of anyone who would sit in a church pew to listen to the good things Brittany Spears taught.  The notion of 'credibility' exists in most people's minds.  A bad messenger can and does, hurt the message.

I think it would be one thing if Jesus were the only one in the world that taught these messages. Maybe you'd be right, the message would be undermined by his delusions of grandeur. But really, much of his teachings, at least the ones I adhere to, simply reinforce the Golden Rule. The credibility of his message I suppose is reinforced by all the other similar messages by others.