Religion...

Come here to talk about topics that are not related to development, or even Kansas City.
aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Religion...

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:36 pm

Francis should end up being a good Pope, afterall he is a Jesuit. I am curious, though, is he the type of Pope they were expecting or is he a surprise?

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chaglang
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Re: Religion...

Post by chaglang » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:36 am

Fr. James Martin, SJ, the editor of the Catholic magazine America was interviewed on NPR this morning. He said he didn't think that the College of Cardinals had any indication that Pope Francis would take on the issues he has. Martin also said that even the Jesuits who knew Francis before he was pope have been surprised. It's a little reminiscent of the turn Earl Warren took after Ike nominated him to the Supreme Court.

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Re: Religion...

Post by FangKC » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:08 am

Pope Francis will probably die "mysteriously" within a couple of years.

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Re: Religion...

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:48 pm

"He said he didn't think that the College of Cardinals had any indication that Pope Francis would take on the issues he has."

I would tend to agree with that statement. Afterall, almost all in not all of the Cardinals were appointed by the last two Popes. But given his background what he is doing is just the same.

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Re: Religion...

Post by AJoD » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:57 am

Thought some here might find this review (written by an atheist) of God's Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science interesting.

I actually couldn't remember how pervasive this myth was in this thread, but a board search for "Galileo" pulled up several striking instances.
The myth goes that the Greeks and Romans were wise and rational types who loved science...Then an iron-fisted theocracy, backed by a Gestapo-style Inquisition, prevented any science or questioning inquiry from happening until Leonardo da Vinci invented intelligence and the wondrous Renaissance saved us all from Medieval darkness.

The online manifestations of this curiously quaint but seemingly indefatigable idea range from the touchingly clumsy to the utterly shocking, but it remains one of those things that "everybody knows" and permeates modern culture.

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Re: Religion...

Post by earthling » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:03 pm

There are always groups with a purpose who will twist history to match their agenda - (in this case Richard Dawkins type atheists that the humanist/atheist author is chastising - I actually view Dawkins atheists as sort of like fundies). And then you have informed groups with a similar view/purpose who take a different approach. Same can be said for different types of theists ranging from pacifist pantheists to radical fundies. Interpretation of history is always a tricky thing and is easy to spin to match one's world view even if not trying to. We all do this including me, as much as I try not to.

Thought this was interesting part of article...
On a rather more personal note, as a humanist and atheist myself, there is a rather snippy little aside on page 212 where Hannam sneers that "non-believers have further muddied the waters by hijacking the word 'humanist' to mean a softer version of 'atheist'." Sorry, but just as not all humanists are atheists (as Hannam himself well knows) so not all atheists are humanists (as anyone hanging around on some of the more vitriolically anti-theist sites and forums will quickly realize). So there is no "non-believer" plot to "hijack" the word "humanist". Those of us who are humanists are humanists - end of story. And "atheism" does not need any "softening" anyway.
I personally can't get into the label game. I don't mind being called atheist by a theist as it's a theistic term, but I don't call myself one just as I don't call myself an aflyingunicornist. If I had to be labeled I supposed at this particular era of available pop culture labels, would be a "Naturalist" and I imagine I'll reject that label at some point when the masses interpret the meaning differently than I do.

Humanists are falling into the same trap as theology as it's just really another flavor of philosophy - imagination creating an ideal world view, which is useful to make things happen but philosophy is not a tool to understand what externally 'is out there'. Humanists and theologists both misuse philosophical logic that ends up as sort of unintentional sophistry - that is, with good intent rather than to be deceptive. Positive minded people embrace good intent, even if based on something made up (like maybe afterlife, higher beings, etc), especially those who struggle with needs that aren't being met. A handful of others with positive intent, take more responsibility entirely at the human layer and impact on/manipulation of nature. Attributing human actions in context to (imaginary) supernatural beings or attempting to conjure up supernatural forces to influence ones favored outcome (prayer), well, kinda cheapens the human experience.

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chaglang
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Re: Religion...

Post by chaglang » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:02 pm

The Inquisition made the Gestapo look like a bunch of pikers.

Terry Gross had a fairly memorable interview about this topic a few years ago:
http://www.npr.org/2012/01/23/145512271 ... errogators

And this quote in particular deals with the issue of the role of the Church and the Inquisition in medieval intellectual life. It sounds like there's truth both in what you're calling the myth and the idea of the Church as the seat of intellectual life:
"For a long time, the church had had an effective monopoly on the intellectual life in Europe. Publishing was something that involved copying manuscripts. ... Suddenly, there's a new technology on the block. And the church sees this as a threat. So the church sees a combined attack — from the printing press and the Protestant Reformation — [and that] is really the thing that instigates the third Inquisition. ... This is the Inquisition that puts Galileo on trial. ... It's the Inquisition that starts the index of forbidden books."

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Re: Religion...

Post by KCMax » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:13 am

The Pope named "Time Person of the Year", beating out Miley Cyrus. Two great world figures, I bet it was a tough decision.

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Re: Religion...

Post by mean » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:22 pm

If I were feeling more ambitious, I'd write a parody of Wrecking Ball entitled Popemobile, but I'm just not in the mood.

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Re: Religion...

Post by earthling » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:39 am

Continuing from another thread...
knucklehead wrote:Anyone have good information about the percentage of the population that attends a church service during a typical week. I.e. Average total weekly Attendance / total population?

Just curious.
Recent Gallup poll on national religious trends over last 20+ years.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1690/Religion.aspx

According to poll, looks like those who are no longer members of a church have gone from around 30% to 40% over last 20 years - that is, membership has fallen from around 70% to 60% - close to 40% attend about weekly.

For those who consider religion 'very important', the trend is steady over last 20 years but those who say 'fairly important' are trending towards not religious. The 'not important' has gone from around 12% to around 22% over last 20 years.

Curious that the 'born again' and evangelists are rising within those who are religious, while non-religious are growing. Is curious because in Europe there is a sharp decline in religious people (outside immigrants), maybe 35% active and only about 50% believe in a god(s). I wonder how much US TV evangelism (mostly bible literalist variety) influences US trends towards fundamentalism - Europe doesn't have that outside the traditional religions. Europe is typically either into early traditional religions or more likely nothing at all while US has a lot of spinoffs, either more bible literal/evangelical or adapt to modern times (liberal/hipster Christians) or personal interpretation (spiritual but not religious).

Check out all 3 pages of the poll.

KC is typically somewhere in the middle so the poll above is probably in the ballpark for KC too. This says KC has 49,702 religious adherents per 100,000, so around 50% adherent and around US avg, though KC seems to have slightly above average bible literalists. Scan through the slides...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 22644.html

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Re: Religion...

Post by earthling » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:11 pm

Here's the Pew Research poll. Shows pretty similar pattern.
http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/

Pew..
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Gallup divides it up differently but the pattern is essentially the same...
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Pew..
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Pew: Of those who no longer affiliate with a religion...
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Re: Religion...

Post by knucklehead » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:33 pm

The problem with polls is that I suspect a lot of people overstate the number of times a year they attend church. They may tend to give the response that represents what they plan to do in the future rather than what they have actually done over the past year. Then life happens and they end up going less often.

Or they may just say whatever they think makes them look good to the person taking the poll. That happens a lot in polls. My vague understanding is that if you ask people a poll question about how often they vote --the responses imply a much higher turnout than what actually happens in elections. Could be wrong, just my impression.

It would pretty much take a headcount of the heads actually in the pews on a representative Sunday.

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Re: Religion...

Post by shinatoo » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:06 pm

Maybe Grid, but I'm also not seeing options for multiple times a week. We used to go Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night and sometimes Thursday night. If there was a revival, usually twice a year, it was every night. Plus there are usually bible-study and fellowship groups available every day. The Protestant church has trended away from the Sunday night service and is doing more Saturdays as a substitute for Sunday morning. Mid week services are still very common.
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earthling
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Re: Religion...

Post by earthling » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:10 pm

knucklehead wrote:The problem with polls is that I suspect a lot of people overstate the number of times a year they attend church. They may tend to give the response that represents what they plan to do in the future rather than what they have actually done over the past year. Then life happens and they end up going less often.
Yeah, that is mentioned here...
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... stay-home/
Of course, how often people say they usually attend services is not necessarily the same as how often they actually do attend. For example, time diary studies, in which respondents report on concrete activities over a limited span of time, often show lower rates of church attendance than data from surveys, which perhaps better reflect how people see themselves (rather than how they behave).
The highest I've seen is close to 40% (the American Religious Bodies shows around 50% are 'adherent' and about 50% of those attend regularly, so that's as low as 25% total). What is consistent in all polls/data is that over the decades, attendance and membership is generally shrinking and the never attend is clearly increasing. However of those who are very religious, those who take the bible literally might be increasing (in the US). May be why we see more challenge to evolution in US than in Europe and Asia.

When it comes to polls, looking at trends is usually more useful than looking at the actual numbers. From many sources using very different methodologies, the trend appears to be that non-religious is growing, moderately religious are trending towards non-religious and while very religious is not growing, those who are might be getting more evangelical, fundamentalist leaning.

This is Gallup's but every source I've seen shows generally a similar pattern...
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Re: Religion...

Post by warwickland » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:39 pm

interesting that those claiming catholic have remained somewhat steady. i maintain that catholics view their catholic-ness as being as much a cultural affiliation as having anything to do with "church," if not more. i think that helps retain the affiliations amongst those who have "lapsed."

protestants find it easier to walk away, it appears.

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Re: Religion...

Post by earthling » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:49 pm

There has been a rise of immigrant Catholics into US, especially Latino, so given the net is steady over decades, non-Latino Catholics must be decreasing. Is the case with the world too, which is probably why there is now a pope from Latin America. But yeah, there is also the cultural identity even in not actively Catholic. Some say 'recovering' Catholic but still ultimately call themselves Catholic (cultural identity like Jews) rather than ex-Catholic or none and some still send kids to Catholic school even if not actively religious.

At the rate non-religious have been increasing lately and Protestants decreasing, non-religious may pass Catholics in 10 years and Protestants in 15-20. And since there aren't enough educated domestics to fill growing technical/science/medical jobs given the dumbing down of and less interest in math/science in US, more will be imported from Asia/India - and educated Asians tend to be even less religious.

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Re: Religion...

Post by KCMax » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:44 pm


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Re: Religion...

Post by earthling » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:30 pm

Wasn't wise of him to give that place any credibility. A neutral place should have been selected.

And now there is the poll that 25% of US don't know/accept the earth revolves around the sun. The poll was by National Science Foundation and sounds suspicious. Would like to see other polls from agencies who understand how to construct polls that represent cross section of population. Alarming if anywhere near the case though.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... n/5508413/

Maybe there were just some cynical answers.

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Re: Religion...

Post by KCMax » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:25 am

earthling wrote:
Wasn't wise of him to give that place any credibility. A neutral place should have been selected.

And now there is the poll that 25% of US don't know/accept the earth revolves around the sun. The poll was by National Science Foundation and sounds suspicious. Would like to see other polls from agencies who understand how to construct polls that represent cross section of population. Alarming if anywhere near the case though.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... n/5508413/

Maybe there were just some cynical answers.
I remember in HS my teacher pointing out a poll that X number of Harvard grads said the same thing. I dunno, maybe you temporarily forget. Depends on how the question is worded.

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Re: Religion...

Post by earthling » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:36 am

Pew report on generational view on social issues/religion, report mostly focused on Millenneals...

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/03/ ... adulthood/

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