Religion...

[Maitre D]

Exactly. So, I say, come on God! Where's the booming voice to at least give me something? It does not guarantee my faith, even the Bible agrees with this. I still have free will. I just need a little push in the right direction.

To quote U2 - "He moooves....in mysterious ways"

[Maitre D]

fixed for accuracy. 

Alright, who has the jackoff.gif emoticon for this one?

[kcmetro]

Alright, who has the jackoff.gif emoticon for this one?

This little guy?

[mean]

To quote U2 - "He moooves....in mysterious ways"

Holy crap! Well, that clears it up. All this time I thought Bono was singing about a steer.

[ignatius]

Us agnostics do not suffer from such a dillema - by acknowledging that man is incapable of knowing such truth, we can equally disdain those that claim their deity is fact and those that claim they are false.  Both are fooling themselves with false knowledge.  

That's the best definition of agnosticism I've seen.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Alright, who has the jackoff.gif emoticon for this one?

Hearsay does not make compelling proof. 

[Maitre D]

That's the best definition of agnosticism I've seen.

No, this one is:


ag·nos·tic  Audio Help  /æg n st k/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ag-nos-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.  Someone who takes the easy way out of life's most crucial intellectual question.

synonym:  coward

[LenexatoKCMO]

No, this one is:


ag·nos·tic   Audio Help   /æg n st k/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ag-nos-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.   Someone who takes the easy way out of life's most crucial intellectual question.

synonym:  coward

If deluding yourself into claiming that you know something that is impossible for you to actually know is the ultimate measure of bravery than it must be wise to be a coward.  Your definition of bravery must match my definition of foolishness. 

[Maitre D]

If deluding yourself into claiming that you know something that is impossible for you to actually know is the ultimate measure of bravery than it must be wise to be a coward.  Your definition of bravery must match my definition of foolishness. 

It just smacks of lame-ness to me.  It's like a group debating who will win the Super Bowl.  When you're asked you proudly declare:  "I have no idea and nor should you.  To pretend to know the future, is foolishness."

[LenexatoKCMO]

It just smacks of lame-ness to me.   It's like a group debating who will win the Super Bowl.   When you're asked you proudly declare:  "I have no idea and nor should you.   To pretend to know the future, is foolishness."

There is a fundamental difference between making an educated guess about who is most likely to win v. actually convincing yourself you know the outcome with abosolute certainty before the coin is even flipped for kickoff. 

[AJoD]

Do I think it's reasonable that a man walked on water or that a god is judging us based on whether or not we believe in a hippie who lived 2,000 years ago? No.

Do I think it's reasonable that we live on a rock that hurtles around a giant ball of fire at 67,000 mph and that we live within an infinite universe that magically appeared out of nowhere without the influence of a powerful mind (maybe even our own?)? No.

This cracked me up.

[mean]

There is a fundamental difference between making an educated guess about who is most likely to win v. actually convincing yourself you know the outcome with abosolute certainty before the coin is even flipped for kickoff. 

There is also a fundamental difference between making an educated guess about the existence of God one way or the other vs. dogmatically declaring his existence or non-existence. All of which are different from abandoning inquiry and dogmatically (and a bit smugly, I might add  ) declaring his existence unknowable.

[Maitre D]

There is a fundamental difference between making an educated guess about who is most likely to win v. actually convincing yourself you know the outcome with abosolute certainty before the coin is even flipped for kickoff. 

I don't think so.  Even the religious adherents and atheists on this board express some doubt or uncertainty in their views.  The idea of the Bible-banging believer vs. the angry atheist is largely a myth.


I haven't seen one post here denoting certainty.  So I don't follow.

[LenexatoKCMO]

All of which are different from abandoning inquiry and dogmatically (and a bit smugly, I might add  ) declaring his existence unknowable.

I never said anything about abandoning inquiry - I would recognize the possibility that at some point in the future man may become capable of knowing the truth behind the great mysteries of life (for instance, perhaps someday the aliens shall land and explain it all to us or perhaps Jesus/Yaweh shall return to the earth and explain it more concretely before smiting us all, or perhaps scientists will find the silver bullet that proves the big bang).  But at the present time we do not have the information or tools to reach any sort of conclusion with a reasonable degree of certainty. 

And P.S. - when have I ever not been smug?   :D

[LenexatoKCMO]

I don't think so.  Even the religious adherents and atheists on this board express some doubt or uncertainty in their views.   The idea of the Bible-banging believer vs. the angry atheist is largely a myth.

What's the point of half-ass faith?  Seems like the sort of thing you kind of need to be "all-in" for to really make a difference.  Are you going to explain to St. Peter that you should get into heaven because you "kinda believed some of the time"?  Weren't you just accusing me of being a cowardly bet-hedger by being agnostic?  I would say that your uncertain faith is a lot shakier ground to be standing on. 

[Maitre D]

What's the point of half-ass faith?  Seems like the sort of thing you kind of need to be "all-in" for to really make a difference.  Are you going to explain to St. Peter that you should get into heaven because you "kinda believed some of the time"?  Weren't you just accusing me of being a cowardly bet-hedger by being agnostic?  I would say that your uncertain faith is a lot shakier ground to be standing on.   

Not at all.  The Bible is full of people doubting.  (John the Baptist, Thomas, Moses, Peter, Job, list goes on and on).  There is no requirement to be "all-in" or perfect in your faith.  Jesus himself used the analogy of faith the size of a "mustard seed"


You do speak truth that a person shouldn't hedge-his-bet by believing just enough so that you get in, if it happens to be true.  And no harm if untrue  (Pascal's Wager)

[LenexatoKCMO]

Not at all.  The Bible is full of people doubting.   (John the Baptist, Thomas, Moses, Peter, Job, list goes on and on). 

Things didn't always work out so well for those biblical figures whose faith waivered. 

Besides - these religions are asking for you to risk far more than just your belief and pride - they generally want your money, time, and energy as well. 

[Maitre D]

Things didn't always work out so well for those biblical figures whose faith waivered. 

The Bible does say that all 5 are in heaven though.   :P

Besides - these religions are asking for you to risk far more than just your belief and pride - they generally want your money, time, and energy as well. 

KU asks me for my money, time and energy all the time too.  I give what I can.  For certain things (hoops), I give massively.  Religion is the same way - some will give more, and only to certain areas if they so choose.

[ShowMeKC]

Doubting is a part of faith. If you have faith, you will doubt because we are human and fallen. We can either let the doubts destroy our faith, or strengthen it...

The part about John the Baptist doubting:
Matthew 11:2,3 (OSB)
"And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples and said to Him, "Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?"

The OSB says about this passage...

"According to the Church Fathers, John the Baptist asks this question in order to guide his own disciples to Jesus. Undoubtedly, John's own faith was also strengthened through Christ's response."

But as I said, yes, the Bible is definitely full of people doubting. However this doesn't reflect a lack of faith or a weakness of faith. Doubting is just a part of faith and we can detirmine whether we will use it to strengthen our faith, or destroy our faith.

[mean]

I never said anything about abandoning inquiry - I would recognize the possibility that at some point in the future man may become capable of knowing the truth behind the great mysteries of life (for instance, perhaps someday the aliens shall land and explain it all to us or perhaps Jesus/Yaweh shall return to the earth and explain it more concretely before smiting us all, or perhaps scientists will find the silver bullet that proves the big bang).  But at the present time we do not have the information or tools to reach any sort of conclusion with a reasonable degree of certainty. 

I guess where I disagree is the reasonable degree of certainty. It seems to me there is a reasonable degree of certainty--not 100%, to be sure--that there's no God, and it seems the other take is to have a reasonable degree of certainty--also not 100%--that there is. Like I was saying before, I really only prefer the term 'atheist' because it doesn't seem to imply quite as much uncertainty, and it leaves out the implication that the fact of God's existence or non-existence might be unknowable. I can't be certain there aren't purple monkeys on the moon, but it seems rather odd to say, "well, maybe," about something so blatantly preposterous, for which there is absolutely zero evidence, even if I can't disprove it. While God may not be quite so preposterous, he's not far off in my book.

And I'm pretty well sure that, if there is a God out there somewhere, and he can answer prayers or even interact with the universe in any way at all, we will be able to detect him...eventually. And heck, maybe we have. Maybe God lives in dark matter and interacts with the universe in ways we haven't yet realized. Maybe someday we'll detect prayers leaving people's brains and traveling to the empty spaces between galaxies, where they are absorbed and considered by God, who then makes subtle adjustments to the fabric of the universe to accommodate, if he wishes. I don't know, but it sounds pretty darn far-fetched to me, on the order of moon monkeys or interstellar teacups, pending any kind of evidence to the contrary.

So at the end of the day, I'm curious, would you say that we're all agnostics on a sliding scale of 1-100, with MD up near 1, you around 50, and me at 99? Or would you break it down differently?

You do speak truth that a person shouldn't hedge-his-bet by believing just enough so that you get in, if it happens to be true.   And no harm if untrue  (Pascal's Wager)

Well, if one is into hedging one's bets and wants to cover one's bases, I have a whole host of Gods to worship and rituals to perform to make sure one can get into all of the various afterlives that have been theorized over the millennia. Word to the wise: I wouldn't suggest starting by getting oneself slain gloriously in battle to ensure entry into Valhalla, though, because one wouldn't have time to then do any of the other stuff.