Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

[Midtownkid]

You are taking bits and pieces of those ideas (not sure where the classical christian ideas get involved?) and making a view of the future.  Your view is a bit radical and illogical in places.  There is no doubt the world will change in the future, there may be less cars, less sprawl, etc.  However we don't really know.  We have no idea.  All we can do is speculate.  You are speculating...that's ok.  I just don't like how you always state these speculations as fact, as if you have been to 2050 and seen it all first hand.  You say, 'there will be no need for parking garages in the future' or 'we will not be able to produce oil' etc.  It's just annoying how you state it all as fact, especially when your statements are so radical and sometimes a bit silly. 

[ShowMeKC]

(not sure where the classical christian ideas get involved?) and making a view of the future. 

"Classical Christian Ecology":
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/paradosis ... -07_pc.mp3
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/paradosis ... -14_pc.mp3
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/paradosis ... -21_pc.mp3
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/paradosis ... -28_pc.mp3

In the view of Ancient Christians (and Jews), the Earth is alive, it isn't an inanimate and static object floating out in space. It's a living thing. Humans were made and given "dominion" over everything.
That does not mean we were given the right to subjugate everything in the sense of kings, emperors and dictators. Rather, we were given dominion over them. We are to be like the "fathers" of the Earth. The Earth, like a child, reflects what it "sees" us doing. If we do good and do God's will, then it will reflect that. If we go against his will and sin and all kinds of evil is being done by humanity, the Earth reflects that. (you could back this up by showing that before man was given dominion over the Earth, it was in chaos. Then it was at peace until the fall of man, and now goes up and down along with man's behavior)

Since the Earth is as a child, so too should we treat it as one. We need to care for it and not use and mold it to our own intentions or desires. We are to "shepherd" over it and care for it.

[aknowledgeableperson]

I'm not going to expand to those that want to continue the status quo and aren't concerned with sprawl or it's elimination and the limitation of the automobile...

There is a big difference between what I (or anyone else) would want to happen and what will happen.  Jacobs, Knustler, Duany, etc. are not the decisions makers in the world.  They can influence but then so will others who have difference opinions or thoughts than they.  You should expand your readings, even if they disagree, because those readings will give you a possible picture of us at some time in the future.  And that future will be a composite of those you listed as well as cars running on electricity or hydrogen going down tree lined street out in the burbs.

[ShowMeKC]

However AKP, that would STILL include the massive destruction of land and habitats. I as a Christian can NEVER EVER support that...

Christians don't support sin just because it's there and won't dissapear do they? Why should I then, as a Christian, support the destruction of the Earth just because other people are unwilling to give up their pride, convenience and self-centeredness for something better?

[Highlander]

However AKP, that would STILL include the massive destruction of land and habitats. I as a Christian can NEVER EVER support that...

Christians don't support sin just because it's there and won't dissapear do they? Why should I then, as a Christian, support the destruction of the Earth just because other people are unwilling to give up their pride, convenience and self-centeredness for something better?

Perhaps we should all just commit mass suicide to rid ourselves of the potential of sinfully destroying any more of the Earth.  But, wait a minute, suicide is a sin too.  We are damned (literally) if we do, damned if we don't. 

[mean]

Perhaps we should all just commit mass suicide to rid ourselves of the potential of sinfully destroying any more of the Earth.  But, wait a minute, suicide is a sin too.  We are damned (literally) if we do, damned if we don't. 

One last sin to ensure you'll never sin again? I think God can get with that.

Have at it! 

[ShowMeKC]

Highlander, this is about reducing what we are doing. I do not think we can ever stop it all... However we need to do our best to limit it as much as possible. Just stopping at letting suburbs/sprawl exist and letting people do what they want isn't enough... We need to push it as far as we can with everything we can.

[Midtownkid]

However AKP, that would STILL include the massive destruction of land and habitats. I as a Christian can NEVER EVER support that...

Christians don't support sin just because it's there and won't dissapear do they? Why should I then, as a Christian, support the destruction of the Earth just because other people are unwilling to give up their pride, convenience and self-centeredness for something better?

How do you explain all the suburban Mega Churches that eat up so much land in the suburbs?  They have vast parking lots and use huge amounts of energy to run.  Not to mention the sinfully ugly structures they are usually housed in...

[mean]

Predicted response: Obviously, they aren't real Christians.

[aknowledgeableperson]

However AKP, that would STILL include the massive destruction of land and habitats. I as a Christian can NEVER EVER support that...

Perhaps the people who are the best stewards of that philosophy, at least in the USA, would be the Amish.  Afterall, they live off the land, deprive themselves of modern conviences, live very simple lives, and so on.  But wait they do use autos as long as someone else owns it and drives it.  They use our roads and highways when they go into town and shop.  And I guess there would still be some destruction of land and habitats if we all became like them and had to live on a farm.

[ShowMeKC]

Not really AKP, because one farm produces much more food than for just the family that runs it, if the excess food is sold in the local marketplace in the village or town, then people can live both in the rural area and in town and not have to worry about food, and land wouldn't be consumed in mass.

Megachurches aren't traditional Christianity my friend... I'm not talking about modern Christianity or the Christianity many modern Christians practice. I'm talking about Christianity before the Reformation, before the Great Schism.

[mean]

What do I win!?!? 

Anyone else think the useful conversation here has drawn to a close?

[ShowMeKC]

mean.. I didn't say they weren't real Christians, so you didn't win... I said they aren't traditional or following ancient Christianity. They are obviously still Christian.

[mean]

Awww, alright. But it seems close enough to me.

[voltopt]

I think you should get half a star.  Or at least 5 dollars.

[Cyclops]

I'm lost... what thread is this?

How do you win money?

What election?

I liked the frog...

[ShowMeKC]

Just FYI, many Architectural/Construction textbooks or books today speak a lot about sustainability and are really pushing hard for it. Many also go as far as to speak not only about sustainability, but also speak against sprawling suburbs...

Sustainability may be defined as meeting the needs of the present generation without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their needs. By consuming fossil fuels and other nonrenewable resources, by building in sprawling urban patters that cover extensive areas of prime agricultural land, by using wood from forests that are not replanted, by allowing topsoil to be eroded by wind and water, and by generating substances that pollute water, soil, and air, we have been building in a manner that will make it increasingly difficult for our children and grandchildren to meet their needs for buildings and healthy lives.
On the other hand, if we reduce building energy usage and utilize sunlight and wind as energy sources for our buildings, we avoid depletion of fossil fuels. If we reuse existing buildings imaginatively and arrange our new buildings in compact patterns on land of marginal value, we minimize the waste of valuable land. If we harvest wood from forests that are managed in such a way that they can supply wood at a sustained level for the foreseeable future, we maintain wood construction as a viable option for centuries to come. If we protect soil and water through sound design and construction practices, we retain these irreplacable resources for our successors. If we systematically reduce and eliminate the various forms of pollution emitted in the processes of producing and operating buildings, we keep the environment clean in perpetuity. It is often possible to do these things without increasing the monetary costs of construction and operating buildings, and in some cases actually to reduce these costs.

Allen, Edward and Iano, Joseph. Fundamentals of Building Construction. Hoboken, New Jersey, John Wiley & Sons, Inc. 2004

[aknowledgeableperson]

Does that mean that we all need to move to Detroit and other cities in the rust belt that have been losing population so that new areas are not developed?  And why design any new buildings at all?  Why build new in Phoenix when there are similiar buildings in Detroit to be used.

The point is there are many reasons why we build the way we build.  And some of those reasons are not always good reasons.  Will constuction be different in the future?  The answer is yes because we are already seeing some of the changes now.  Will these changes continue and more new changes made?  Those answers are tougher.  Two things will have to take place.  Changes in the economics of building and local government controls. 

[Pork Chop]

This is a great article about the shifting needs of the American homebuyer. I for one am glad that this trend is happening.

Homeowners value quality over size

In Atlanta's 1920s-era Kirkwood neighborhood, teardown projects in the last year have been cast in the simpler Craftsman style, which have immediately found buyers. Indeed, US builders say their clients increasingly look for quality materials and workmanship rather than sheer size. Some families are even abandoning the one-bedroom-per-child model, builders say, in favor of larger, but fewer, shared rooms.

That aesthetic shift may have affected builders like Mr. Milani as much as the real estate bust.

"There's an awareness now that some of the homes frankly are too big," says Scott Van Duzor, a home builder in Illinois's Fox River Valley. "The McMansion has almost become embarrassing to some people," he says. "They're listening not just to their wallet but their conscience."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20090106/ts_csm/amcmansions