Questions Re: Brush Creek Development

[rxlexi]

  Hey ya'll, while enjoying a few minutes today walking along the Brush Creek riverwalk I came upon the classic development question of whether or not it is possible to develop anything along the banks of the creek.  In this case, I'm not talking any major square-footage, just a small, tiny even, bar building with the front opening onto the Ward Parkway sidewalk and the rear opening on to a large, floodable deck. 

  Is this possible at all, or have the Corp of Engineers banned all development along the creek banks, even if one was willing to construct a 'floodable' structure?  I ask because, well, I'm curious, and I'd love love to see it done.  I think it could be quite a success, just a tiny place for drinks overlooking Brush Creek, which really is prettier on a good day than it ever gets credit for.  I would think even a shack like the gondola service building with a bar in it and a slightly lower wooden deck could work. Thoughts?

[warwickland]

  Hey ya'll, while enjoying a few minutes today walking along the Brush Creek riverwalk I came upon the classic development question of whether or not it is possible to develop anything along the banks of the creek.  In this case, I'm not talking any major square-footage, just a small, tiny even, bar building with the front opening onto the Ward Parkway sidewalk and the rear opening on to a large, floodable deck. 

  Is this possible at all, or have the Corp of Engineers banned all development along the creek banks, even if one was willing to construct a 'floodable' structure?  I ask because, well, I'm curious, and I'd love love to see it done.  I think it could be quite a success, just a tiny place for drinks overlooking Brush Creek, which really is prettier on a good day than it ever gets credit for.  I would think even a shack like the gondola service building with a bar in it and a slightly lower wooden deck could work. Thoughts?

"newer" development has been done very close to brush creek, but has squandered an opportunity to do what you suggest. (see the atrocious apartment complex on oak)

unfortunately, brush creek has some serious issues with [glow=brown,2,300]fecal coliform[/glow], [glow=red,2,300]fish kills[/glow], [glow=blue,2,300]flooding[/glow], etc, and can be pretty nasty in the summer.

but i agree, it would be nice if something along the lines of what you suggest could be done well. i personally don't like the concrete "improvements" along brush creek and would suggest a hybrid naturalization which resembled something like a more controlled version of boulder creek... but this has still got some people freaked out...(its a fancy flood cntrl project yada yada yada)

[FangKC]

I've always thought Brush Creek could have been made something similar to the riverwalk in San Antonio.  Small restaurants and bars might have been added on the south side where the grade is much higher.  I've never seen the necessity of having both sides of Ward Parkway be two-way streets between Main and Belleview. One could take out one lane of traffic, and the curb parking along a couple of blocks, and create some riverwalk eateries with outdoor seating, or glassed in dining, where the windows could be opened during warm weather.

On the north side, the street could be re-routed a few feet north by the tennis courts and create additional space for several little places with decks. The buildings would have to be set up high on floats, or reinforced concrete piers to avoid flooding.

The odor problem probably stems from problems with combined storm drains and sewers, which has been pointed out (I think by the EPA) to be addressed in the future citywide.

[KCMax]

At the very least I'd like it if the sidewalks along the creek ran west further. They've done a great job on the east side, but the west side of the creek by Pembroke Hill is quite ugly.

[dangerboy]

They are going to the same renovations to west, eventually. I think that's the last phase, after the finish the segment between Paseo and the Blue River.

It's unfortunate that Cleaver sold this project using comparisons to San Antonio's river walk, because it just can't happen. This is a flood control project and has to handle the big storm surges which fill it up almost to the top.  Any structures by the water like buildings or railings will trap debris in a storm surge, backing up water and flooding.  That's why the bridges have all been raised so far above the creek.

The city did plan for a creek-side restaurant on the east end of the Plaza and tried to include it in with the gondola concession, but so far no restaurateur has come forward to lease it.

[KCMax]

It's unfortunate that Cleaver sold this project using comparisons to San Antonio's river walk, because it just can't happen. This is a flood control project and has to handle the big storm surges which fill it up almost to the top.  Any structures by the water like buildings or railings will trap debris in a storm surge, backing up water and flooding.  That's why the bridges have all been raised so far above the creek.

The city did plan for a creek-side restaurant on the east end of the Plaza and tried to include it in with the gondola concession, but so far no restaurateur has come forward to lease it.

I'm not sure I buy that as an excuse. Mission is doing a flood control project, but their plan is to a mini-riverwalk type development. Maybe its apples to oranges. I don't think any retail or restaurants has to be right on top of Brush Creek, but it would add vibrancy to have retail surrounding it, even if it was on the level of Ward Parkway.

[rxlexi]

right KCMax, that's what I'm thinking.  Even something on the level of Ward Parkway could potentially be pretty neat.  As far as what I have in mind, I would be thinking a small building, at or near street level, that opens to stairs down to a small to medium sized floodable deck a few feet further down the grassy grade on the north side of the creek.  Maybe try to maximize foot traffic by placing it at the intersection near Baja/Plaza III or close to the Wornall Bridge if there's space. 

  A small spot for drinks, maybe a FEW light desserts or something, but primarily just a pretty deck with some xmas lights along the water to sit and enjoy some drinks on.  I wouldn't bank on an upscale restaraunt being successful in a location along the creek, but it seems to me that something along the lines of a tiny (floodable!) drinkin' spot might work well...

[Highlander]

They are going to the same renovations to west, eventually. I think that's the last phase, after the finish the segment between Paseo and the Blue River.

It's unfortunate that Cleaver sold this project using comparisons to San Antonio's river walk, because it just can't happen. This is a flood control project and has to handle the big storm surges which fill it up almost to the top.  Any structures by the water like buildings or railings will trap debris in a storm surge, backing up water and flooding.  That's why the bridges have all been raised so far above the creek.

The city did plan for a creek-side restaurant on the east end of the Plaza and tried to include it in with the gondola concession, but so far no restaurateur has come forward to lease it.

What San Antonio did to stop flooding along the San Antonio River is unfortunately not practical for Brush Creek.  First they built a dam upstream of the city for flood control, I think that was back in the 1920's.  The second thing they did was really clever.  The city built a channel across the neck of a large meander in the San Antonio River to carry the bulk of the discharge and built flood gates at the either end of the neck of the meander.  These gates allowed a controlled amount of water to flow into the meander which was then effectively cutoff from the river itself.  The cutoff meander became the riverwalk.  The gates, along with the upstream dam, are very effective at limiting the amount of floodwater that gets into the former meander (now the river walk area). 

Brush Creek is just not physiographically positioned to emulate such a system.  It's headwaters are in a hilly and urbanized area so it collects floodwater quickly and the only place for it to go is down the relatively narrow valley that runs through the plaza. 

I would think that there would be room for some mobile vending carts that could be removed quickly that could sell certain items along the pathway or even room for outdoor seating if a pavillion could be contructed above the creek that could be attached to an existing restaurant on Ward Parkway.  A lot of restaurants here in Europe serve on beaches, riverways or Plazas with the outdoor seating fairly detached from the restaurant.  Of course, getting across Ward Parkway traffic with food would be a real challenge for the wait staff.  Unfortunately, the entire creation along the creek is not very people friendly....limited access points, sterile atmosphere, no barriers along the creek etc....     

[knucklehead]

Brush creek was not sold by Cleaver as another San Antonio river walk.

Some of us actually have enough brain cells left to remember the devestating flood on the Plaza in the 1970s.

Not doing flood control was not an option. That was the overwhelming reason for the brush creek project.

I spent three weeks in downtown San Antonio in 2002 working on an audit. DT San Antonio is a dump. The river walk is popular in part because their is absolutely no other place to go other than the Alamo. It is basically a collection of resturants and touristy expensive bars. It got real real old after two nights. Personally, the Plaza kicks the river walk's ass twelve ways to friday. But Texas in general, and San Antonio in particular,  is such a dump, people think it is nice in comparison.

I have walked Brush creek four or five times from Jefferson to Main and twice from Main to Oak. Other than a slight chemical smell in a few places, I have never noticed an odor problem. The dual use sewer / storm drains are a problem, but only after major rains. And even then the problem is manageable with measures such as airation and chemicals.


The Kansas City star has made it a crusade to attack brush creek as flush creek. Why? well why have they made a crusade of trashing the St. Patrick's day parade? The Star sometimes just picks crap out to trash pertaining to KCMO and Jackson county. They think it helps them sell newspapers in Joco. Sleezy but transparant.

[warwickland]

I have walked Brush creek four or five times from Jefferson to Main and twice from Main to Oak. Other than a slight chemical smell in a few places, I have never noticed an odor problem. The dual use sewer / storm drains are a problem, but only after major rains. And even then the problem is manageable with measures such as airation and chemicals.

during the summer, brush creek can unfortunately be pretty bad at times. the condition of the creek varies quite a bit.

[Downtowner]

Knucklehead is right. Somehow San Antonio has turned into a tourist/vacation destination based solely on the Riverwalk.  If I remember right, the Alamo is across from Burger King downtown. What KC has failed to do is market the Plaza nationally. It is a far better destination than the Riverwalk and countless others but we just sit around and hope people discover it when they get to town. If the fire walk that was proposed last fall for Brush Creek becomes a reality, it would give a great tourist draw for it at night. Lets hope it happens.

[Highlander]

Knucklehead is right. Somehow San Antonio has turned into a tourist/vacation destination based solely on the Riverwalk.  If I remember right, the Alamo is across from Burger King downtown. What KC has failed to do is market the Plaza nationally. It is a far better destination than the Riverwalk and countless others but we just sit around and hope people discover it when they get to town. If the fire walk that was proposed last fall for Brush Creek becomes a reality, it would give a great tourist draw for it at night. Lets hope it happens.

San Antonio has a couple of advantages over KC as a tourist draw:  1) generally warm year round and 2) near two huge metro areas ... DFW and Houston.  Otherwise, I agree, KC and the Plaza kick butt....most people I know who have lived in San Antonio lament how deep into the heart of Texas the place is. 

[KCMax]

Forget San Antonio for a second. Is there a way we can make OUR Brush Creek more vibrant and popular?

[Highlander]

Forget San Antonio for a second. Is there a way we can make OUR Brush Creek more vibrant and popular?

Well, I think any kind of large scale restaurant activity (outside of a few portable vendors) is out due to the flood control situation.  I think we need to concetrate on making it a better area for walking and/or bike riding.  Better local access and linkage with the Volker Park area would be a good start.  Additionally, a way to get across the water at base level would be good  because crossing now means you have to ascend, utilize a bridge and descend the other side.  Just curious...are the walkways lit at night? 

[rxlexi]

thanks Max, that's my point, at it's core.  I know Brush Creek will never emulate the Riverwalk, and that's fine.  But I still feel, flood control project or not, that there is quite a bit of untapped potential along it's banks.  Really, in this case I was simply think of one, SMALL bar, just a place to have a drink or two outside along the creek.  There are times when it really can be pretty, in fact most of the time it looks appealling enough to sit alongside and enjoy a drink, IMO.  

It can also be pretty rough, but from my experience that's primarily after heavy rains.  I did see a dead rat floatin' around in there after a large heavy downpour once, however , so I understand the concern about water quality.  The water that day had risen all the way up over the sidewalks and up near the top of the concrete walls though.  I just dont think that most of the time it's an issue.

 At any rate, the core of my inquiry is thus: is there any legal or governmental obstacle blocking construction along the Creek (i.e. small bar at street level with a few steps down to an open deck)?  And secondly, whether or not construction of any such thing is at all possible, what CAN we do to make it a bit more lively, or at least make people aware of the appeal of a walkable stretch of pseduo-waterfront on the Plaza?

 I ask about the bar because I'd love to see it, love to do it.  I was in Hungary not long ago and drank on the Danube on a teency floating shack off of a well populated village beach and just loved it.  I'd like to see a little bar on or near the Missouri here, but whether or not that's possible it would seem Brush would be a much easier sell what with the Plaza foot traffic, canyon of buildings and lit concrete pedestrian walk.  It really is something of an appealling place, and I damn well wouldn't mind seeing a drink-shack along its banks.  I think it could be successful.  

[ComandanteCero]

old thread about the restaurant that was to be down by the gondolas: http://forum.kcrag.com/index.php/topic,89.0.html

an old thread about ways to revitalize Brush Creek: http://forum.kcrag.com/index.php/topic,6532.0.html

maybe someone could merge this thread with that second one (?)

[KCPowercat]

Well tonight should answer any questions about this...go check out Brush Creek right now....almost over all the concrete.  the only options for development would be at street level...and that would be tricky.

It's a creek that handles a ton of water from the north, south, and west....let's just keep it from flooding again and not worry about developing it...at least that's my opinion.

[knucklehead]

The Brush Creek flood control project prevents at least one devestating Plaza flood every ten years. Not only does it prevent direct damage and clean up costs, the Plaza would have slowly died with a devestating flood every decade. It has produced economic benefits that far exceed its costs.

Hopefully replacing the dual use storm sewer overflow/sewer pipes will end the carping about water quality.

[advocrat]

Hopefully replacing the dual use storm sewer overflow/sewer pipes will end the carping about water quality.

Is this actually going to happen, as in "are there official plans?" or, is this a suggestion?

[tat2kc]

The EPA requires separate systems, KCMO is just dragging its feet in complying. Big surprise.