P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

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kcjak
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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby kcjak » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:32 am

hgascoigne wrote:It looks like they're moving this intersection to a four-way stop. The light has been flashing red for the past few days and stop signs have been installed.


I hate four-way stops - people are idiots.

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby scooterj » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:15 am

kcjak wrote:
hgascoigne wrote:It looks like they're moving this intersection to a four-way stop. The light has been flashing red for the past few days and stop signs have been installed.


I hate four-way stops - people are idiots.



Why do they keep pulling this crap in pedestrian-heavy areas? It makes the intersections so much more dangerous and confusing for everyone.

(Similar rant: The intersections downtown where they removed the stop signs for one direction only, but the surrounding buildings at the corners cause poor sight lines for the crossing vehicles that have to stop. 12th & McGee, 11th & McGee, 11th & Oak, for example.)

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby flyingember » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:27 am

No, four-ways DO NOT make them more dangerous for peds.

Peds have 100% right of way at a stop sign. You can walk out at any time and a car must wait for you no matter what with or without a marked crosswalk.

You're complaining about bad drivers, not the intersection design.

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smh
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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby smh » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:47 am

Yeah four-way stops are generally better for pedestrians in my experience. I'm pumped to see this intersection converted. Auto traffic is relatively light through there but ped traffic is high. This is a good decision in my book.

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby scooterj » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:26 pm

flyingember wrote:No, four-ways DO NOT make them more dangerous for peds.

Peds have 100% right of way at a stop sign. You can walk out at any time and a car must wait for you no matter what with or without a marked crosswalk.

You're complaining about bad drivers, not the intersection design.



Have you been downtown when there any kind of event? It's 97% bad drivers.

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby WoodDraw » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:56 pm

scooterj wrote:
flyingember wrote:No, four-ways DO NOT make them more dangerous for peds.

Peds have 100% right of way at a stop sign. You can walk out at any time and a car must wait for you no matter what with or without a marked crosswalk.

You're complaining about bad drivers, not the intersection design.



Have you been downtown when there any kind of event? It's 97% bad drivers.


This is 100% true, but don't we need to start designing for this? Like you have lanes poorly closed/marked for construction, one way streets, bus only lanes, 2 way stops, 4 way stops, very poor sight lines, etc.

I'm not making excuses for bad driving, but I can sympathize a little with people not used to coming downtown. I think the city could do a better job of having a comprehensive plan of how to move traffic around. I live down there and half the time I get confused on what I'm supposed to on what street. This goes for the pedestrian experience as well.

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby flyingember » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:30 pm

There needs to be more uniformity. Parking needs to be consistently on the outside lane of all roads over a certain size. No half the block here, not there for no real reason. Parking could end at a concrete bumpout and make it really clear where parking ends.

Painting bike boxes and lanes green goes a long way. They tell the driver that green is not for them.
We should start painting no parking curbs again. It takes time and money but it's really easy to tell a no parking zone if it's painted red.

We need delivery/pickup parking on most blocks. Something with 5 minute parking so people can pull in and pickup someone or make a delivery.

We need truck routes that have a minimum of obstacles for big trucks to get into the core of downtown

There needs to be parking signs to help people find it, much better go this way for key destinations. I would love a KC Scout style system for downtown traffic on freeways and major surface streets like "congestion on street, Sprint Center traffic take X to X"

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby KCPowercat » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:36 pm

As a pedestrian I want all 4 way stops.

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby WoodDraw » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:41 pm

I agree with all 4 way stops. I also agree with pretty much everything flyingember said.

I've had a lot of problems with site lines blocked at intersections lately. It's hard to get too pissed at drivers because eventually they have to move up enough to make sure they're not heading straight on to incoming traffic. But then you block the crosswalk. And there are plenty of drives that just plow right by the stops signs and then stop, completely ignoring pedestrians because they know they won't be able to see.

We also need to start enforcing parking downtown. A week or so back someone came down my street for the only time I can ever remember and I think every car I walked by had a ticket.

Also, automatic walk signs and no beg buttons.

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby KCPowercat » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:43 pm

automatic walk signs along the "smart" corridor are all but dead. There have been some improvements made but auto walk at the cycle change ain't happening.

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby pash » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:04 pm

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Last edited by pash on Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

JBmidtown
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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby JBmidtown » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:24 pm

pash wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:automatic walk signs along the "smart" corridor are all but dead. There have been some improvements made but auto walk at the cycle change ain't happening.

Why? Despite millions of dollars invested in sensors and control systems they can't manage to figure out when people want to cross the streets and change the signals accordingly? Or is it merely that smart infrastructure + idiots in charge = stupid city?

If the idiots in charge can't make this happen, I will suggest an alternative: get rid of the walk/don't walk signals at all intersections that don't have left turn arrows, so that pedestrians at least have the right to cross on a green light. If the idiots in charge can't do even that, I have a hammer and will make it happen myself.


You are, hands down, my favorite person on this board.

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby KCPowercat » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:25 pm

The detection is actually working pretty well now in my experience and ped signals will turn on if there is enough time even in mid-cycle after detection. A few of us met with the city and described the problem, the feedback was to turn on walk signals automatically at the beginning of a cycle w/o a pedestrian detected would cause the cycle time (due to ADA and pedestrian standards) to be longer than desired to be able to quickly/smartly switch back to the other phase to allow the streetcar / cars / peds the other direction go through quicker.

If you watch the cross traffic cycles especially across main, you can definitely see they are making that cycle short to get back to N/S cycle...which is making the streetcar faster....I'm not really that pleased with the answer but I feel like the argument has been exhausted.

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby WoodDraw » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:00 am

The detection has gotten better, but the signs are often ignored. Pedestrians get to a signal with a green light but a red pedestrian and have just trained themselves to ignore. Which confuses the hell out of people that are just visiting, and can't be good for anyone. But neither is having to stand at an empty intersection with a green light and a no walk sign.

I'm happy that you've been able to talk to them and they're trying at least though.

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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby pash » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:57 am

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Last edited by pash on Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

flyingember
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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby flyingember » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:22 am

I would like to see ped signals be a really simple standard. It puts more responsibility for safety onto the individual and less onto technology or timing.

ped signals always turn on with a logical time. Detection makes them turn on longer if they detect someone, basically what was described above.
-and-
If it says don't walk you can walk if there's no cars coming at your own risk. With a don't walk you WILL wait for a car when there is one.

Let's say I'm crossing at W to E at 13th/Main. I can clearly see the train is stuck at the 12th St stop with a lot of people so there's no cars coming from that direction. I don't see any cars coming from the south, maybe there's a red at 14th. I get to cross at my own risk.

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KCPowercat
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Re: P&L District: 14th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby KCPowercat » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:58 am

I was a huge complainer about how the ped detection and lights were working in the smart corridor which is still very much running and honestly seems to be working well overall. After discussions I'm still not satisfied but I understand the "why" better even though I'm not probably explaining it well. I've moved on from it now... Even on dumb signals there is a green vehicular light and the ped phase has run out.

One improvement we did get changed was if a ped is detected on one side of the street, the signal on the parallel side gets a walk too even if no ped was detected. Small improvement but it has made a noticeable difference


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