P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Come here for discussion about the new downtown entertainment district.
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rxlexi
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by rxlexi » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:01 am

I've gone to Ice House for dinner several times and it is usually very quiet. Food is always good, service has been fine.

For the life of me I can't understand why they didn't just call this Joe's KC in P&L - seemed obvious well before they opened. I assume most folks don't even know it's there, or that it is in fact Joe's BBQ. Also, the lame Texas roadhouse decor doesn't do anything to help suggest that the BBQ is in fact a local specialty.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by snigglefritz » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:10 am

Unrelated but adjacent to County Road, I tried out some food at Day 2 of staff training at the Guy Fieri place. The aggressively eclectic roadhouse vibe was a little bit weird but good lord those tacos were ridiculously good. The blood orange margarita was pretty solid too. The prices didn't seem too bad and it seems like it should be a fun/quirky addition to P&L.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by snigglefritz » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:29 am

Oh, and Hotel Karaoke looked pretty nice too. Definitely less sticky looking than Offkey but I'm sure that will change in pretty short order. Definitely looking forward to going there for way too many ill-fated, weekday, work happy hours.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by GRID » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:18 pm

Last time we were in town, we stopped in there during the afternoon for lunch and it was dead. There may have been one other person in there. All of downtown KC always feels pretty much dead to me though. It's just the way KC is. But I was surprised how dead the Ice place was. The branding is pretty bad though. You really have no idea what the place is or the kind of food they serve and you really don't have any idea it's related to Joes KC.

Downtown KC DESPERATELY needs a pro sports team at the arena. That arena might be one of the busiest "concert" arenas, but without a pro tenant, it's probably one of the least busy major arenas in the country. You bring in a pro team and 40-50 additional nights of 15k people and places like that bbq place will do great.

It would also drastically help other retail like Rally House. We stop through the one downtown every time we are in KC and there is never anybody in that place even though they have more inventory to choose from than other locations we have been to like Independence and Tiffany Springs. They say they do all their biz during big 12 game events. I don't see how they stay open just from that. An NHL or NBA team across the street would make that place go crazy with sales.

A pro team will bring a constant flow of people downtown on a regular basis and many of them will be repeat visitors every few nights, so they will get to know the downtown area and what's offered there. A concerts only schedule brings a fresh set of newbies downtown every to every event or people that go downtown once every few years so it's not as easy to develop that relationship with fans and downtown. A lot of people say KC doesn't need or can't support a pro team. I still think KC could easily support a team in the winter when there is little competition for the same dollar and not a lot going on in the city. And downtown "needs" it.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by normalthings » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:40 pm

^^ bringing new jobs and HQs downtown would have a similar effect 365 days a year.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by shinatoo » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:54 pm

GRID wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:18 pm
Last time we were in town, we stopped in there during the afternoon for lunch and it was dead. There may have been one other person in there. All of downtown KC always feels pretty much dead to me though. It's just the way KC is. But I was surprised how dead the Ice place was. The branding is pretty bad though. You really have no idea what the place is or the kind of food they serve and you really don't have any idea it's related to Joes KC.

Downtown KC DESPERATELY needs a pro sports team at the arena. That arena might be one of the busiest "concert" arenas, but without a pro tenant, it's probably one of the least busy major arenas in the country. You bring in a pro team and 40-50 additional nights of 15k people and places like that bbq place will do great.

It would also drastically help other retail like Rally House. We stop through the one downtown every time we are in KC and there is never anybody in that place even though they have more inventory to choose from than other locations we have been to like Independence and Tiffany Springs. They say they do all their biz during big 12 game events. I don't see how they stay open just from that. An NHL or NBA team across the street would make that place go crazy with sales.

A pro team will bring a constant flow of people downtown on a regular basis and many of them will be repeat visitors every few nights, so they will get to know the downtown area and what's offered there. A concerts only schedule brings a fresh set of newbies downtown every to every event or people that go downtown once every few years so it's not as easy to develop that relationship with fans and downtown. A lot of people say KC doesn't need or can't support a pro team. I still think KC could easily support a team in the winter when there is little competition for the same dollar and not a lot going on in the city. And downtown "needs" it.
Invest in getting UMKC Basketball good enough to play in Sprint. That's probably the best shot we have at regular sports franchise playing there. Worked in Omaha for Creighton.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by GRID » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:11 pm

normalthings wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:40 pm
^^ bringing new jobs and HQs downtown would have a similar effect 365 days a year.
True, but that's mostly 9-5. Plus, even though KC is starting to see some activity for new office space, that office space won't even come close to replacing what has been lost over the past decade. Unless there is a major culture shift in KC's corporate community that brings tens of thousands of jobs back downtown, you are not going to see a huge impact even if all the new proposed projects happen. You are looking at maybe a half million sq ft of office space going up in the next 5-7 years. That's great for downtown, but on a relative scale, ti's not going to do much especially when compared to the amount of office space lost. What you can hope for is some sort of snowball effect where these new projects spark other new projects and you start seeing some serious redirection of jobs downtown. But for the most part, KC's companies are still too concentrated in the suburbs. For a metro of over 2 million, Downtown KC has one of the smallest urban core employment centers and KC is lucky it's a huge federal job city or it would be much worse. KC is still not seeing the jobs come back downtown like other cities are. 1980's style suburban office park development not near transit etc has ground to a halt in most of the country. It's still alive and well in KC.

A pro sports team would do wonders for downtown during the evenings instantaneously. Too bad the soccer stadium is not near downtown somewhere.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by flyingember » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:07 pm

GRID wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:11 pm
Unless there is a major culture shift in KC's corporate community that brings tens of thousands of jobs back downtown, you are not going to see a huge impact even if all the new proposed projects happen.
It feels like this is starting to happen.

https://cityscenekc.com/childrens-mercy ... -building/
when the CRI is full staffed, it will be around 3,000 people dedicated to research. Approximately 10 times more jobs than now.”
That's 2700 new jobs in just one department of one project. I bet there's another 300 new support jobs coming as well.

Children's Mercy has enough expansion planned they could be adding 6000-7000 jobs.

Your half a million number is too low, CMH is putting up 375,000 sq ft and Strata is 250,000. So that's 625k in only two projects.
The obvious big hole is a major new commercial space on the scale of 1201 Walnut making up millions of sq feet in a single building.
A pro sports team would do wonders for downtown during the evenings instantaneously. Too bad the soccer stadium is not near downtown somewhere.
Baseball would cover ~20% of the year. Most people would buy food at the game. Businesses didn't open at the current stadium because there's little demand for after game entertainment.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by GRID » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:59 pm

I don't think Children's Mercy is a good indicator of Metro KC's corporate community shifting back to downtown. CMH has always been committed to downtown. They would be building even if downtown was still haunted houses. But I did forget about their new building. Downtown KC needs a major migration from just few of the companies that left downtown for the suburbs for it to really see a dramatic positive reversal of private sector well paying white collar jobs. I'm not saying that's not starting to happen is small increments, but it still has a long way to go before downtown KC even has the employment it had in the 1990's. KC needs to get that new class A office space up asap and hope it sparks a new wave of interest in downtown KC just like One Light did with residential.

I was not taking about baseball. Downtown baseball in KC died when they renovated Kauffman. That ship sailed. It's never going to happen now and in the very tiny chance it does, a baseball stadium should not be anywhere near the core of downtown anyway, it should be on the edge of downtown such as in the east crossroads or something. Large stadiums just cause too much parking demand and their massive footprint is terrible for retail when they are not in use. A large stadium would do more harm than good in the heart of downtown. The NFL stadium should never move from its current location.

Not to mention the fact that you can't even begin to compare the spin off effects of the TSC and its 20,000 surface parking spaces with a stadium in a true urban location anyway.

I was talking about about an NHL or NBA tenant at the existing arena. No new parking garages would be needed. No land banking for a decade (which creates blight) or a billion dollar stadium that KC and Jackson County would never fund anyway.

Just a tenant to give Sprint Center another 50 dates of crowds with a perfect demographic for the P&L district during the slowest time of year for downtown when the area has few visitors during the winter months. If you don't think an NHL or NBA team at the Sprint Center would drastically help the P&L district, downtown hotels etc then you are crazy. And it would expose way more suburbanites to downtown on a much more regular basis, so they will come back even when not going to a game.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by WoodDraw » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:01 pm

I know a lot of people that go downtown for events and they'll drive to some place for dinner and then drive from there to the event.

The best thing Kansas City can do for street life is to continue to invest in density, not events.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by KC_JAYHAWK » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:07 pm

Downtown still hasn't recovered from AT&T emptying out the Town Pavilion, SHB moving to CC and AMC leaving for Leawood. HRB moved downtown, which is probably a wash with AMC, but a lot of Companies had moved to the Plaza pre-PnL, and it's just going to take time to build up downtown's corporate community. The City probably should have been focusing on Commercial towers as well as residential and new hotels, but at least it seems there are several projects lined up now. I think the Starbucks setback was a real kick in the pants for the City and local developers.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by rxlexi » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:31 pm

Just a tenant to give Sprint Center another 50 dates of crowds with a perfect demographic for the P&L district during the slowest time of year for downtown when the area has few visitors during the winter months. If you don't think an NHL or NBA team at the Sprint Center would drastically help the P&L district, downtown hotels etc then you are crazy.
I agree and think the NBA is a perfect fit for KC and Sprint Center. The obvious twofold issue involves finding a wealthy, committed ownership group (doesn't necessarily have to be local but would help), and waiting out NBA expansion or relocation. Here's hoping, someday.

Putting MLS out at Legends still stings. That would have worked well in a spot like north or east loop, especially given it's use for the odd outdoor concert, etc. Nice millennial demo, relatively compact (by stadium standards), adds another major metro attraction to the heart of the region. Alas...

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by KCPowercat » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:37 pm

Big fan of this going from one report of one place not being busy one Friday night to downtown KC is dead and nothing will make it unless we add a pro team and 10s of thousands of employees and residents.

I love you KC rag.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by KC_JAYHAWK » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:40 pm

KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:37 pm
Big fan of this going from one report of one place not being busy one Friday night to downtown KC is dead and nothing will make it unless we add a pro team and 10s of thousands of employees and residents.

I love you KC rag.
But just wait until the Big 12 tournament, then downtown will be bigly :). Can't wait to see all the purple this year. :)

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by normalthings » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:39 pm

rxlexi wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:31 pm
Just a tenant to give Sprint Center another 50 dates of crowds with a perfect demographic for the P&L district during the slowest time of year for downtown when the area has few visitors during the winter months. If you don't think an NHL or NBA team at the Sprint Center would drastically help the P&L district, downtown hotels etc then you are crazy.
I agree and think the NBA is a perfect fit for KC and Sprint Center. The obvious twofold issue involves finding a wealthy, committed ownership group (doesn't necessarily have to be local but would help), and waiting out NBA expansion or relocation. Here's hoping, someday.

Putting MLS out at Legends still stings. That would have worked well in a spot like north or east loop, especially given it's use for the odd outdoor concert, etc. Nice millennial demo, relatively compact (by stadium standards), adds another major metro attraction to the heart of the region. Alas...
I have talked to Cliff Illig about this before. IIRC, they looked at multiple KC/Missouri sites before being attracted to The Legends(and star bonds). Besides it’s proximity to the country side, the legends Cerner building was put out there due to its proximity to the stadium.

A soccer stadium downtown would have also drawn a Cerner office.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by KCPowercat » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:57 pm

KC_JAYHAWK wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:40 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:37 pm
Big fan of this going from one report of one place not being busy one Friday night to downtown KC is dead and nothing will make it unless we add a pro team and 10s of thousands of employees and residents.

I love you KC rag.
But just wait until the Big 12 tournament, then downtown will be bigly :). Can't wait to see all the purple this year. :)
Odd transition.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by FangKC » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:37 am

Sometimes I think it might be a good idea to stop allowing more large commercial buildings to be built on the Plaza. Doing that might shift construction back downtown. The trade-off for property owners is that mid-rise residential would be allowed instead to replace office buildings. The Plaza needs much heavier residential density anyway.

It isn't that there aren't office buildings going up in KCMO, or employers adding jobs. They are going to the Plaza, Three Trails, and south of I-435.

Downtown is much different than it was in the early 2000s. Commercial should be coming back at a much higher level than it is.

There are a lot of companies hoarding cash in the USA. I wish there was more incentive in tax policy to encourage them to build and own their own headquarters buildings again. That was what used to provide stability for downtown business districts.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by WoodDraw » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:25 am

I mean most of our big companies are just trash at downtown. We have a generational gap in every company here that could make an impact.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by smh » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:43 am

WoodDraw wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:25 am
I mean most of our big companies are just trash at downtown. We have a generational gap in every company here that could make an impact.
Agreed

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by GRID » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:39 pm

KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:37 pm
Big fan of this going from one report of one place not being busy one Friday night to downtown KC is dead and nothing will make it unless we add a pro team and 10s of thousands of employees and residents.

I love you KC rag.
I know you always think I'm a debbie downer, but I call it being a realist. My point was only that a pro tenant at sprint center would do wonders for the P&L district and downtown and it would be nearly instantaneous vs waiting for KC's business community to step up which apparently isn't going to happen.

I understand KC doesn't have somebody with deep pockets willing to bring in a team, but even if they did, it would probably be a fight against AIG since they have control over the arena and would rather keep it the way it is now since it would be more profitable to them to keep a pro tenant away even though that's how they sold the arena to voters.

No matter what people say about how busy sprint center is or how profitable it is, it would be much better overall for downtown and the city if the arena had a pro tenant.

And I'm just at a loss for why KC's regional corporate community has continued to turn its back on downtown. The few companies that used to be committed to downtown have mostly left after mergers or just greed due to Kansas incentives and KCMO just continues to come up on the short end of the stick when it comes to corporate mergers with the latest casualties being DST and now it looks like State Street might be next.

This is why Cerner is by far the biggest missed opportunity in the history of KC to really build up a first class second or third tier downtown. I'm glad the city is waking up and trying to get something done by bringing in some new class A office space. If they don't, the residential and hotel boom will be over before it even got a chance to really get going. But it's going to take a lot more than a few hundred thousand sq ft of space after downtown has lost millions and tens of thousands of employees.

I honestly do not know how Cerner is able to recruit from outside the rural midwest.

KC still needs a major cultural shift from their business community which are all in love with office parks near the beltway. 435 must be a fun as hell road to drive on.

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