P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:34 pm

KCPowercat wrote:"I don't think the concepts would continue to be approved if they've failed or were of poor urban design."

Let's just discuss without you thinking everytime a negative p&l comment is some sort of personal attack. That's what we do here. There is no doubt that area could have been better designed...but hindsight is 20/20...we all get that.

Concepts like Texas live being approved has nothing to do with good urban planning.


I don't take it as a personal attack. The Cordish company has been very good to me, so I'll defend the reasoning behind choices they've made in the past and I'll agree with you on some poor choices made by them. There are several I disagree with. Cordish isn't going to continuously poor money into similar designs if they don't have a proven track record of working. This is what I mean by designs currently being approved of similar design to this district.

I'm agreeing that area could have been done better, but it was a challenge and results will vary.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby KCPowercat » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:37 pm

There is no design I know of like p&l multiple urban blocks.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:06 pm

KCPowercat wrote:There is no design I know of like p&l multiple urban blocks.


All Cordish involved properties.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby pash » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:14 pm

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:57 pm

pash wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:Cordish isn't going to continuously poor money into similar designs if they don't have a proven track record of working.

"Working" for Cordish and "working" for the broader set of people who live and work in the city are two very different things. We care about a lot of things Cordish doesn't care about at all, and many of the things Cordish cares about are entirely irrelevant to anybody without skin in their game.

That's why you keeping getting a bit of flak here: you're always giving us Cordish's perspective, and adopting it yourself. That's informative and useful to the rest of us, but good corporate practice is often not good urban practice, and when good business decisions lead to bad urban results, no, we're not going to be happy with the result just because it's good for Cordish.


And you shouldn't just settle for a developers plan because it's good for them. I've been to one of the Cordish members personal homes, I've been in their suite for a Ravens vs Steelers game and I've been around the conference table with them. I've made suggestions that were respectfully declined and I've made some that were accepted and put into practice. I'm not trying to sell you on the Cordish family, just explaining what I get to see and these people do care about good urban practice. They care about revitalizing run down areas, putting people to work and leaving a lasting product/development that they and the community can be proud of. I've been in the meetings where we are 25 million dollars over budget and have to start making cuts and sacrifices in order to deliver a product that is sustainable. Everything I read on here, I take to those meetings and I interject if and when the time is right. Obviously, they need to make money but that has never been the number one goal for them.

I welcome everyone to rip apart and dissect all designs. They appreciate constructive criticism. So keep it coming, I'm not going to stop getting defensive about comments like "The P&L is what it is, and isn't what it isn't. And what it isn't is an urban district that feels urban and works like 99.9% of the successful urban districts in the world work." That's not criticism, that's bullshit and there's a difference.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby KCPowercat » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:01 pm

None of those are done am I correct?

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:10 pm

KCPowercat wrote:None of those are done am I correct?



Battery in Atlanta is done. Ballpark Village is working on Phase 2. District Detroit is under construction but mostly framed out.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby KCPowercat » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:18 pm

Let's hope for those cities they learned from their design mistakes and/or tenant choices. That was really the only point I guess I've never been a cordish hater since the day they announced their interest here....but they aren't without fault.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:30 pm

KCPowercat wrote:Let's hope for those cities they learned from their design mistakes and/or tenant choices. That was really the only point I guess I've never been a cordish hater since the day they announced their interest here....but they aren't without fault.


They've made plenty of mistakes. The P&L was the biggest and most ambitious project by scale at the time for the company. They had revitalized downtown Baltimore including the Power Plant building (very cool space) and Power Plant Live. Those projects while large, were still not as many city blocks.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:46 pm

Do you get the feeling in your meetings with Cornish that they are happy with their profits in Kansas City? After the completion of the residential towers (a marked sweetheart deal for taking a significant initial risk) do you feel they will continue to be a player in this market?

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby pash » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:48 pm

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:26 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:Do you get the feeling in your meetings with Cornish that they are happy with their profits in Kansas City? After the completion of the residential towers (a marked sweetheart deal for taking a significant initial risk) do you feel they will continue to be a player in this market?


They're in this for the long-term game. Once there is nothing to build, they will still remain to operate and maintain their investment. In the over 100 year history of the company, they've barely ever sold or given up ownership of anything. This district will be in a constant state of change for the next several decades and I think they'll remain a player permanently. That's their track record.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:48 pm

pash wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:I'm not going to stop getting defensive about comments like "The P&L is what it is, and isn't what it isn't. And what it isn't is an urban district that feels urban and works like 99.9% of the successful urban districts in the world work." That's not criticism, that's bullshit and there's a difference.

Well, no, it's not bullshit—and it's not really a criticism either, just a statement of the P&L's unusualness. And, yes, P&L is very different than most other successful urban shopping and entertainment districts, the large majority of which are in neighborhoods built in the conventional, historical way, with shops and restaurants housed in buildings opening onto the street. Westport is such a district; it clearly has a very different atmosphere than P&L, and people use its space differently than they use P&L's.

To return to the original discussion: KCPowercat's criticism of the design of the space around H&R Block was that it's hard for anything other than a well known place like Chipotle to succeed there, presumably because it's not natural, simply as a consequence of walking down the street, to pass the entrances of many of the businesses in the area. I explained a bit more about that, and you replied that nobody should have any trouble finding the storefront they're looking for in the block.

Sure, it's not that hard to find the place you're looking for in P&L. But many people use urban shopping and entertainment areas without looking for a certain place. Often they don't just say to themselves, "We're going to such and such restaurant," and then go to that restaurant. Instead they say, "Let's go to to such and such district," and then they go there, look around a bit, stick their head in the door of one restaurant to see whether there's a wait or to look at the menu or whatever, and then go some place else instead. Or maybe they do say, "We're going to such and such restaurant," and they start walking there, but they see some shop on the way they want to check out, and they do that, and then maybe (but not always) they continue on to where they were heading. Likewise, when somebody heads out of his office around lunchtime in a typical city center, it's not always the case that he knows where he's going—he's hungry, and he's going to eat somewhere, but particularly where often isn't fully decided until he see something that appeals to him at the moment, and he says, "Ah, that place."

The experience of walking through (and especially by) P&L is not like that, because if you're not paying much attention, you might not notice much of what's there, and you certainly won't see enough of it that you'll want to stop some place you hadn't planned to stop—at least if you're walking along the street rather than the pedestrian path that Cordish evidently intended all customers to use, but which a great many potential customers might not use. At the same time, because so many people are drawn into the P&L's interior, as they head towards one of the establishments along the pedestrian path, there's substantially less foot traffic along its streets, which makes them less good locations than they would be in the traditional arrangement of storefronts facing one another across a public street.

That's how the P&L not like almost all other successful urban shopping and entertainment districts, other Cordish developments notwithstanding. And in that way it is poorly designed, in my opinion (and evidently at least also in the opinion of KCPowercat)—but poorly designed not only because it creates a vibe and manner of use that I think find less attractive than the traditonal one, but because it also seems to make the district less effective for retail than it otherwise might have been.


I respect your opinion and like I've said, I respectfully disagree with most of it. You're comparing to Westport, a historic area that was basically already laid out and old buildings were rehabbed. They didn't have the opportunity to change it's layout. Maybe you're unhappy that they didn't try to make the district look old? Many urban development projects utilize existing buildings and infrastructure or at the very least, have to work around them and blend in with them. This was, for the most part a new build.
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Once again, I see your complaints about the design of that area. I completely disagree with your argument in regards to how people utilize urban shopping, entertainment and dining. The type of restaurants that you'd want to peak into and see if they have a wait, do have street level exterior entrances. Tenants are placed in locations for a variety of reasons, including what makes sense. Drunken Fish, Chipotle and Protein house all have street level, exterior entrances. You're really only talking about Mixx (a destination lunch spot), Insomnia Cookies and BK. Not every design has to follow the traditional Westport, Zona Rosa and Plaza concept. Developers can't be afraid to be different.

Another disadvantage of the design you're in favor of is the fact something has to give. If you go with a traditional store front setup, like most of the district, you'll have units that are too large and too expensive for tenants like Protein house, Mixx and Chipotle to utilize. Not to mention you end up with some massive waste in regards to loading dock space, much like the retail side of Main. Something has to give and you'll never make everyone happy. Especially not us nerds who have interest and or jobs in the development world.

Stop by that area around noon on a weekday the next time the weather is nice. It's usually full of downtown employees enjoying the community space while they take in some lunch. To me, that says the design works. Regardless, we've beat this one to death folks.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby pash » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:53 pm

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby chingon » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:03 pm

pash wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:I'm not going to stop getting defensive about comments like "The P&L is what it is, and isn't what it isn't. And what it isn't is an urban district that feels urban and works like 99.9% of the successful urban districts in the world work." That's not criticism, that's bullshit and there's a difference.

Well, no, it's not bullshit—and it's not really a criticism either, just a statement of the P&L's unusualness. And, yes, P&L is very different than most other successful urban shopping and entertainment districts, the large majority of which are in neighborhoods built in the conventional, historical way, with shops and restaurants housed in buildings opening onto the street. Westport is such a district; it clearly has a very different atmosphere than P&L, and people use its space differently than they use P&L's.

To return to the original discussion: KCPowercat's criticism of the design of the space around H&R Block was that it's hard for anything other than a well known place like Chipotle to succeed there, presumably because it's not natural, simply as a consequence of walking down the street, to pass the entrances of many of the businesses in the area
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Wait, is your argument here that there are not successful examples of retail courtyards in urban areas?

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:07 pm

pash wrote:](*,)


Is this what you do when you can't handle having a different opinion than someone? I respect yours, I just disagree with it. It's ok, life will go on and so will the block you think was so poorly designed.

You want to know what were real mistakes, that actually matter by Cordish?

The plaza area's roof. It was supposed to be much larger in depth but those pesky ole budgets!
The stage fountain and waterfall idea. Excellent idea, terrible execution that never worked. Talk about an excellent way to flush $85,000 down the drain, literally.
Lack of rooftop patio above Shark Bar overlooking Grand Blvd as originally planned....once again, pesky budgets.
Opening "The Jones Pool" which just further perpetuated the "D-bag" culture the competing entertainment districts were yelling as the district opened.
Allowing a Famous Daves to take up a tenant space, pissing off locals in the home of BBQ.


See, I do think Cordish has made mistakes, I just disagree the design of the district, specifically the one we are discussing is one of them.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby pash » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:29 pm

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:45 pm

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:50 pm

pash wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:Is this what you do when you can't handle having a different opinion than someone?

No, that's what I do when somebody replies with a string of non-sequiturs and suggests I'm "unhappy that they didn't try to make the district look old".


Perhaps use a different example instead of the oldest existing district in the city than? Or, perhaps drop a link to these other successful urban developments that are anything in size or comparison to P&L? I took the time to lay out a response to your comment, perhaps too much so. I don't see how any of what I said falls into the non-sequitur category. Like I said, and perhaps you have a problem with mutual respect, we can have different opinions. You've stated your concerns, I've responded to them.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby pash » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:56 pm

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