P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Come here for discussion about the new downtown entertainment district.
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KCPowercat
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby KCPowercat » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:58 pm

they just got too fancy.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby shinatoo » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:30 pm

Would you say they were so fancy that they don't even know?
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:36 pm

pash wrote:Look, if you don't know what a typical street in an urban shopping and entertainment district looks like, Google it and click the "Images" tab or whatever. Or go walk down any of the streets on the Plaza, if you don't think the much more modest Westport counts. (Imagine the faux Spanish architecture is some brand of nondescript contemporary commercial architecture instead, if it helps.) Or go visit the city of your choice and ask anyone there where you can do some shopping, eating, and drinking.

There is nothing special about old buildings that makes it possible for them to have front doors and windows facing each other across a public street. The lack of old buildings where the Power & Light District now stands did not prevent Cordish from building buildings with doors and windows facing the street, at street level, that you enter from the sidewalks of public streets. (In fact, there are some of those in P&L.) There is nothing about storefronts that face the street, rather than face a pedestrian walkway or courtyard with mostly blank walls and raised patios and ADA ramps along the street, that makes them too big or too expensive for tenants of the P&L's sort.

Cordish built what they or their architects wanted to build, and what they wanted included a two-block stretch of storefronts facing an off-street walkway and set of courtyards. As a result, the establishments in those spaces back up to the street and hover above it, and KCPowercat and I don't think it works as well as would have a plain-Jane, found-all-round-the-world design of storefronts facing the street.

Conversely, you think it's great. End of discussion, yes?


I've been to many urban mixed use developments, kind of part of the job. You're literally talking about a very few tenants. Most every restaurant or retail business has a street entrance at street level. You're talking about one courtyard within a large district. You're throwing the entire district under the bus because you don't like the fact you've got to walk into a courtyard in order to enter The Mixx, BK, Mema's and Insomnia Cookies. You think Rocky Mountain Chocolate Factory in Zona Rosa is pissed because they don't have a "street entrance" and customers need to walk into a courtyard to enter?

Urban mixed-use developments cater to the crowd that likes to walk and explore. Public gathering places, like what was done with the H&R block are a major point of importance within these developments. These districts are about a sense of community and encourage residents and visitors to explore the area. Notice how the tenants within that area are the "grab and go" type of establishments and not the sit and dine type? Notice how there's plenty of seating in the public courtyard to enjoy those freshly secured meals? I'm not sure if it's stairs you have a problem with or if it's just simply not your taste. In Kansas City, the Plaza and Westport were already well established mixed use areas. I guess they could have mailed it in by creating another brick and mortar, done a thousand times before type of district, but they didn't. Not in this situation anyway. The circumstances didn't require it, and it wouldn't have made sense with the cityscape that surrounds it.

At this point, I'm not even sure we're talking about the same district. 95% of the tenant spaces, if not more feature doors and windows facing the street, at street level.

Yes, end of discussion. We have concluded the Power and Light District is not your thing. Got it.

Would be interesting to meet you in person, you seem like the "get off my lawn" type.

Cheers!

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:37 pm

shinatoo wrote:Would you say they were so fancy that they don't even know?


I'm in the fast lane, From L.A. to Tokyo?

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby pash » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:00 pm

.
Last edited by pash on Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:16 pm

pash wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:Would be interesting to meet you in person, you seem like the "get off my lawn" type.

Says the guy who acts like you're curb-stomping his baby whenever you say you don't like something about a Cordish project. :roll:


I was making a joke and you're being a prick. Wait, I guess my comment was basically saying you are a dickhead. Excuse me while I don't apologize. Btw, I listed a few things I think Cordish got wrong, you skipped over them in preference of telling me more about how you think the design of the district sucks. Sorry I'm defensive of my work pal.

Also, I mentioned several times I respected your opinion, but you don't seem capable of respecting a response to yours.
Last edited by StrangerThings on Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:18 pm

By the way, KCPowercat, I respect and listen to what you say. You're capable of expressing opinions while remaining civil. Thank you.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby WoodDraw » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:57 pm

So pash is just demonstrably right here. I mean, he just is.

StrangerThings, I enjoy you quite a bit, and you got close when you said that HR Block fucked things up a bit, and we all get that. But pash and kcp are just right. And this is coming from someone that uses that area a lot. But it's just not good. And giving me google shots of other cities doesn't change that because I live here and I eat there and I walk by it every day so I don't really need satellite images to tell me I'm wrong.

Like it's okay. Two thumbs up to Cordish. They fucked up a block. I still like eating my lunch there. And I kinddd of like it because there aren't many places where I can sit outside and eat at a table. But like, it's not urban 101.


Also, if we do a meetup, do we have to put our names on the badge? Like hi pash, this is strangerthings? KCP was going to say hey, but he got a little into the $100 free bar tab we all threw down. I mean, I'm just asking for a friend.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:00 pm

WoodDraw wrote:So pash is just demonstrably right here. I mean, he just is.

StrangerThings, I enjoy you quite a bit, and you got close when you said that HR Block fucked things up a bit, and we all get that. But pash and kcp are just right. And this is coming from someone that uses that area a lot. But it's just not good. And giving me google shots of other cities doesn't change that because I live here and I eat there and I walk by it every day so I don't really need satellite images to tell me I'm wrong.

Like it's okay. Two thumbs up to Cordish. They fucked up a block. I still like eating my lunch there. And I kinddd of like it because there aren't many places where I can sit outside and eat at a table. But like, it's not urban 101.


Also, if we do a meetup, do we have to put our names on the badge? Like hi pash, this is strangerthings? KCP was going to say hey, but he got a little into the $100 free bar tab we all threw down. I mean, I'm just asking for a friend.


I completely understand. I was using the images as references to other districts either built or being built with Cordish involvement. I'd say something was learned from the HR block design that won't be repeated down the road, but community space was desired and whats there is there. When in town, which is most of the time, I walk through that area everyday, including today around 7pm where I saw some tourist taking panoramic photos of the fountain area while a dozen or so folks were sitting and hanging out. Does that make up for what it lacks in creative or typical urban design? No, it doesn't. Efforts were made this spring to spruce up that area and add furnishings, I'd still like to see the bar utilized more as a weekend outdoor patio spot. It could have been done better, I was just trying to help shine light on why it was done the way it was. Working on future projects, I've asked many of the questions we all wonder.

I could get us a very generous open bar tab, but to spite pash I would hold the event at that outdoor bar as we gaze upon Mixx's closed interior doors. ;) I'm seriously joking this time.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby smh » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:54 pm

Continuing the earlier thought (forgive me if it was answered somewhere in all the back and forth): Is Mixx just oblivious to what's gone on downtown? I understand they had a tough go at the outset with evening/weekend hours but that was years ago. Is this something Cordish raises with them and they simply don't care? It's just very surprising given the evening/weekend success of the south Plaza location.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby StrangerThings » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:48 pm

smh wrote:Continuing the earlier thought (forgive me if it was answered somewhere in all the back and forth): Is Mixx just oblivious to what's gone on downtown? I understand they had a tough go at the outset with evening/weekend hours but that was years ago. Is this something Cordish raises with them and they simply don't care? It's just very surprising given the evening/weekend success of the south Plaza location.


The executive director for Cordish has talked to them, I'm not sure why they're hesitant to open until at least 9pm. Protein house isn't doing great after 6pm, which makes sense as they cater to the gym members. I wouldn't be surprised to see them close around 6pm in the near future.

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Postby KCPowercat » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:10 pm

that's too bad although I can't say I've eaten dinner there. I figured with 1/2 light and P&L filling up a lot of people would be.

I do wish businesses would give evening hours some time....the cost of staying open till nine is tiny.


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