P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

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jimb
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by jimb »

The street slopes downhill to the south, and the roof of the parking garage this is built on is level.  Kard and scooterj are right - the renderings and sight plans show a wide set of stairs and ramps up to the courtyard which is the center of the district.  This district is going to live or die based on foot traffic - they won't be isolating key locations on the main strip.

Its just part and parcel of living in a town that isn't dead flat.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by Long »

jimb wrote: The street slopes downhill to the south, and the roof of the parking garage this is built on is level.  Kard and scooterj are right - the renderings and sight plans show a wide set of stairs and ramps up to the courtyard which is the center of the district.  This district is going to live or die based on foot traffic - they won't be isolating key locations on the main strip.

Its just part and parcel of living in a town that isn't dead flat.
The KC Live garage steps up and down all over the place.  The reason certain floors aren't at street level is entirely because the architects and developers set the floor heights above street level. 

For whatever reason, they have decided it is more important to orient buildings around central courtyards.  With each passing day, Walnut between 13th and 14th is becoming more of a trench, or the back alley to Main and Grand streets. 
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by lock+load »

Long wrote: The KC Live garage steps up and down all over the place.  The reason certain floors aren't at street level is entirely because the architects and developers set the floor heights above street level. 

For whatever reason, they have decided it is more important to orient buildings around central courtyards.  With each passing day, Walnut between 13th and 14th is becoming more of a trench, or the back alley to Main and Grand streets. 
I'd guess they want to keep as much activity as they can on their property where they can "control" it. 
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by warwickland »

Long wrote: The KC Live garage steps up and down all over the place.  The reason certain floors aren't at street level is entirely because the architects and developers set the floor heights above street level. 

For whatever reason, they have decided it is more important to orient buildings around central courtyards.  With each passing day, Walnut between 13th and 14th is becoming more of a trench, or the back alley to Main and Grand streets. 
i sort of understand that, sort of the A street B street method, whereas activity is concentrated on one street while the next is more utilitarian. sort of like the relationship between mass street and vermont and new hampshire (in some places). i hope they are being careful with this.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by Long »

I'm all for progressive thinking, pushing the envelope and coming up with new, better ideas.  But sometimes people need to remember "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  The strategy that has proven to work since the dawn of time is a system of public sidewalks and streets on the outside and building services on the inside (via alleys). 

I like the idea of the KC Live block with its internal courtyard.  But that doesn't mean you need another courtyard right across the street.  Do the courtyard once and do it well, then use the proven strategy everywhere else.  Everything on the plaza faces the street.  Same with Zona Rosa, same with the rest of downtown.  Just about everyplace downtown that doesn't front the street suffers from lack of exposure and ambient activity.

Does this mean I think P&L will fail?  No.  But to me, the Block courtyard and this pedestrian retail path through the middle of the President block seem like one of those ideas that is "different" but not necessarily better.  On one hand,  I have to believe Cordish knows what they are doing, but at the same time I think some of these spaces were designed by an architect or planner that believed these would be cool spaces but doesn't understand much about urban design.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by Tosspot »

Long wrote: On one hand,  I have to believe Cordish knows what they are doing, but at the same time I think some of these spaces were designed by an architect or planner that believed these would be cool spaces but doesn't understand much about urban design.
The argument could definitely be made that there's too much open space in the development that would go unused 90% of the time.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by Long »

Tosspot wrote: The argument could definitely be made that there's too much open space in the development that would go unused 90% of the time.
I think the Live block will see a lot of use.  But you're right, the rest of the open spaces are redundant and will be underused.  People generally don't go out of their way to gather.  In fact, when people run into someone they know on the sidewalk, they will stop right there in the middle of the sidewalk, in the way of other people, while they stand and talk.  It's not a conscious thing, and everyone does it.  If someone wants to sit down and make a phone call or dig through their purse to find something, they want to do it right where they're standing, they don't want to go into some courtyard.  The natural path that people follow is the sidewalk.  People stumble across new retail and restaurants that they see from the street or sidewalk while on their way to some other place (this is the concept behind "anchor stores" in a shopping mall).  Most people need a special reason to stray from the beaten path into a courtyard.

The Live block will succeed because that courtyard is a destination.  It isn't just some interstitial space like a shopping mall.  If anything, it will be more like a food court.  People like to eat outside and they like to eat in common areas.  And there will also be events on stage.

Meanwhile, the sidewalks are too narrow.  Along H&R Block there is just enough room to walk past another person where the trees occur. 

Don't take this the wrong way.  I think this development is great for the city and I think it will be successful.  I'm just venting at architects and planners that should know better.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by anniewarbucks »

First off good pics Kard. Second about the multiple courtyards. I do understand that there will be residental buildings in this area. With KC live being the main outdoor courtyard and concerts being held in this area. some residents might opt to gather in the Block courtyard to get away from the loud music. Yet others might want to gather in some of the smaller courtyards near their condos. So having just one courtyard will in effect keep the residents in only one place. The multiple courtyards will make the area flexible to everyone depending on their tastes and who they want to socialize with.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by ShowMeKC »

While that is good, we still need the majority of the people in the streets. However I don't think that will be a problem.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by macnw »

Isn't  it past your bedtime?
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by anniewarbucks »

Whose bedtime? I do not have a bedtime.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by KCPowercat »

ShowMeKC wrote: While that is good, we still need the majority of the people in the streets. However I don't think that will be a problem.
Why does it matter if the people are on the street or in a courtyard back from the street?  Isn't the goal to have people downtown....I think one of the big problems is there isn't a central place for people to gather current downtown....Barney Allis can do that but none of it is even visable from the street?  A cool place for everybody to gather at lunch (ala Monument Circle in Indy) is something the P&L courtyards could become.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by ShowMeKC »

It definitely matters. Having people on the sidewalks/streets all hours of the day not only helps the economy of the area, and it shows how vibrant the area is, but it also is a great deterant from crime. No one is going to steal a car, shoot anyone, break into a home/building, vandalize/graffiti, etc... when you have people all over the sidewalks and streets.

The streets and sidewalks are not only for transportation, but they are the "playgrounds" and gathering places in a good vibrant city.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by warwickland »

for people who are familiar with this kind of construction - at this point, with the underground garages, etc done and the framing coming along, how long will it take to build out this block?
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by kcdcchef »

ShowMeKC wrote: It definitely matters. Having people on the sidewalks/streets all hours of the day not only helps the economy of the area, and it shows how vibrant the area is, but it also is a great deterant from crime. No one is going to steal a car, shoot anyone, break into a home/building, vandalize/graffiti, etc... when you have people all over the sidewalks and streets.

The streets and sidewalks are not only for transportation, but they are the "playgrounds" and gathering places in a good vibrant city.
people gathering on the streets themselves is a rare occurence in the biggest of cities. victory parades for sports teams, new years eve, festivals, events that make people spill into the streets are rare.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by ShowMeKC »

That is because most cities aren't designed completely properly... Most cities, as they are today were designed/built in the 50s-80s, (though the majority were actually built beforehand, this time period severely hurt their design) and most cities haven't taken many steps to fixing the development from that time period.

I'm not going to explain any further reasons for my statements, just read Jane Jacob's book...

And don't use the excuse that the only reason streets are active in Greenwich Village is because it's in the middle of New York City.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by kcmetro »

ShowMeKC wrote:I'm not going to explain any further reasons for my statements, just read Jane Jacob's book...
If Jane Jacobs was a hot dog, would you eat her? Would you smother her in mustard and relish? Would ya? I know ShowMe would!
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by kcdcchef »

ShowMeKC wrote: That is because most cities aren't designed completely properly... Most cities, as they are today were designed/built in the 50s-80s, (though the majority were actually built beforehand, this time period severely hurt their design) and most cities haven't taken many steps to fixing the development from that time period.

I'm not going to explain any further reasons for my statements, just read Jane Jacob's book...

And don't use the excuse that the only reason streets are active in Greenwich Village is because it's in the middle of New York City.
i could not give a frogs fat ass what she said in her book. the bottom line is streets are for moving people on wheels, bikes, cars, busses, and trains. not people walking it makes them more appreciated when you only gather on them 8-10 times a year for VERY special occasions, not every single friecking nite. no where in america are there streets that are used 24/7 for pedestrians, bourbon street is driveable daily, is is lombard in san francisco.

we in kc have an example of streets that get shut down all the time, it is called westport. that is not going to happen in this district, there is plenty of space desined with pedestrian gatherings in mind, like the plazas this area will have.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Main Site Proposal

Post by DaveKCMO »

kcmetro wrote: If Jane Jacobs was a hot dog, would you eat her? Would you smother her in mustard and relish? Would ya? I know ShowMe would!
stealing this one for my signature, baby!
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