Three Light

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chaglang
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Re: Three Light

Post by chaglang » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:49 pm

StrangerThings wrote:I’m not even mad as a Cordish employee at all. I’m coming from a resident of One Light angle. I started off in income restricted apartments ten years ago and worked my way up to being able to afford a nicer place.

I’ve suggested turning the Midland office building into affordable housing. Makes the most sense.

I’ve never heard of “affordable luxury housing” and for good reason.
Congrats on working your way up, genuinely. That couldn't have been easy and I'm sure that, 10 years ago, you would have liked to have the opportunity to live in a building like One Light.

The problem with using the Midland as the way to offset 1/2/3 Light is that for decades we tried segregating affordable and low income units into a single building and it failed spectacularly. The lesson learned is that mixing market-rate and affordable is far better. The catch is that if you're only building 80/20, you need a lot more buildings to achieve the same number of units. Maybe that's unfair or inefficient, but it's rooted in very recent history. But you're in the business so you know this already. You probably also know that in larger cities with housing regulations, affordable units are routinely mixed into luxury buildings.

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Re: Three Light

Post by KCPowercat » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:51 pm

I also agree Midland shouldn't be just affordable housing....we know what that would mean for that renovation.

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Re: Three Light

Post by chaglang » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:04 pm

Man, that's pretty much the definition of entitlement.

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Re: Three Light

Post by JBmidtown » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:17 pm

StrangerThings wrote:
JBmidtown wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:So now these two city council members are really making a mess. They want 15% of one, two Light and future buildings to be set aside for low income housing. Are you kidding me? How’s that fair to people (like me) that are paying full rent? I’ve had to work hard to be able to afford this place, not sure I’m down with someone getting a fat discount because they don’t make enough money.
The market’s going crazy! Poor people living with upper middle class people? Cats living with dogs? What’s next? Expecting a corporate entity to face the market directly without a subsidy shield?

Relax. Worse things have happened in human history than this slight to your status tower. After all this is just spectacle politicking. Those council members don’t give a fuck about poor people being housed. They just want those sweet, sweet votes.

Besides, if you’re a free market capitalist you’re aware that as housing stock increases but demand for that stock decreases (I really don’t see positive net migration truly booming anytime soon for KC) then price for that stock falls. Right? That’s the argument for incentivized development being a positive for the city after all. So when rent inevitably drops for luxury units and they’re affordable enough for lower social performers to move in what are you going to do? Is your pride for the Cordish product going to collapse as you migrate to another locale? Or will utopian equilibrium be met among the Lights?!

I mean I get your argument/concern. It sucks to work hard for a salary and you do it expecting to have access to better luxuries and comforts. But some people work hard just to keep their head above water let alone have the chance to advance to a white collar job. I don’t think you owe them anything and I think the 15% affordable housing politicking is petty and pointless and helps only a small chunk of working class people. But if you’re not careful your entitlement to your conspicuous consumption is just going to make you an insufferable prick. Just saying.

Whoa there. Slow your roll. I grew up poor and am nowhere close to wealthy. I’m very middle class over here. I don’t have a problem with living next door to someone who is considered “low income” at all. Did it for most of my life. I do have a problem with someone being able to live in the exact same unit as me for several hundred dollars less than what I have to pay.

This isn’t an entitlement thing.
Just because the market values your labor more than that of someone in a blue collar or service industry profession doesn’t mean your labor is actually more important or deserving than theirs.

That said, I do see how it can be insulting and infuriating to work hard for a good life and then have access to that good life subsidized for people whose labor commands less value in the market. But we’re just talking about housing. No one is going to say every one of your purchases or investments would be similarly mirrored. The purchasing power of that subsidized group is still below yours. You have still earned more power and flexibility.

All of this is pointless though. There is no chance this goes in to effect. It’s just council members trying to play the populist angle.

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Re: Three Light

Post by chaglang » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:19 pm

You're saying that you pay too much in rent and have too nice a place to have affordable housing in your building. That's entitlement.

And I think you're also implying that the designated affordable units shouldn't be as nice as the market rate apartments. That's just messed up.

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Re: Three Light

Post by atticus23 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:38 pm

Soooooo...any new renderings of this building? Will is have the same glass? Can’t we all just get along?

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Re: Three Light

Post by GRID » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:44 pm

I find it hard to believe that "affordable housing" is even an issue in KC. I mean, this is a problem that pops up in cities that are MUCH further along in gentrifying and urbanizing than KC is and in cities where there is a huge urban workforce that depends on service jobs etc such for restaurants, office cleaning, maintenance, etc. It's easy to live in an affordable area close to downtown kc and commute.

Seattle, DC, Boston, NYC, Chicago, Denver, Minneapolis San Diego, SF even places like Austin, Nashville, Charlotte etc have have built dozens of ultra luxury towers. KC? I mean KC still has the entire midtown area that is very affordable. There may not be a lot right downtown, but doesn't downtown still have quite a few income restricted buildings?

I guess the city is trying to get ahead of the game before it's a huge problem, but they are attacking one developer, (really the only developer building expensive new construction high rise units).

I hope the city does what is can to help Cordish finish what they started. If they can squeeze some affordable housing units out of Cordish in the Midland tower or something, that would be good for everybody, but if the city tries to force a percent of Cordish's new towers to be affordable housing, they will kill the project. That's tough to pull off in places like DC where there really is an affordable housing problem.

I would just hate to see city hall mess this up and cause a major downturn in the redevelopment progress of Downtown when it's really just a few years into making a serious comeback that is comparable most major cities. People in city hall need to realize that while KC is seeing a lot of development, it's average at best for the size of the city, especially when you compare downtowns to downtowns. (most commercial development in KC is still suburban). Most cities are still doing a lot more, including many Midwest and Rustbelt cities. KC just needs to be careful. I think it's a very fragile market, especially with such little interest by the local corporate community to be a part of the revitalization. KC is on the verge of going to the next level, but it could easily create a major and unnecessary speed bump for itself.

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Re: Three Light

Post by KCPowercat » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:53 pm

yes we know, we're a small potato city with good cost of living that can in no way face affordable housing problems...


I know that's not what you meant but that's exactly how it reads.

Fact is affordable housing is full downtown and yes there is plenty of affordable housing in midtown but this council sees that inequity of not having enough affordable housing right downtown as a topic they want to address.

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Re: Three Light

Post by chaglang » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:04 pm

StrangerThings wrote:
chaglang wrote:You're saying that you pay too much in rent and have too nice a place to have affordable housing in your building. That's entitlement.

And I think you're also implying that the designated affordable units shouldn't be as nice as the market rate apartments. That's just messed up.
No. I’m saying I pay market rate and don’t think it’s fair that someone can live across the hall and pay $800-1000 less than me!

I’m not implying anything. I don’t know how it works with affordable housing mixed in with a luxury apartment building? I would think entitlement is someone thinking they just automatically deserve things they can’t afford. I’d like a $450,000 house, but I can only afford a $250,000 one. Who’s going to help me get that 450k house for 250k?
Yeah, like I said, we tried doing 100% market rate buildings and 100% affordable/low-income and the broad consensus is that it was a mess. But while we're talking about entitlement and where people deserve to live, don't forget that you're living in a building that was subsidized by KCMO taxpayers. The payments are a little more hidden than they are in some other government programs, but the dollars are there nonetheless.

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Re: Three Light

Post by GRID » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:17 pm

KCPowercat wrote:yes we know, we're a small potato city with good cost of living that can in no way face affordable housing problems...


I know that's not what you meant but that's exactly how it reads.

Fact is affordable housing is full downtown and yes there is plenty of affordable housing in midtown but this council sees that inequity of not having enough affordable housing right downtown as a topic they want to address.
I figured you would take it wrong. I just want to see KC develop a solid market and a good inventory of luxury apartments before shutting it down. KC is still in the beginning stages. From what I have seen, KC has not even reached true "luxury" apartment and condo construction yet and it may never reach that if it stops the momentum.

Downtown KC needs ultra luxury towers where CEO's would want to live just as much as it needs affordable housing. Most apartments in KC seem pretty middle of the road for a large urban center.

I'm on the same page as you. I want to see KC boom. Cordish really seems to be about the only company trying to make major things happen though. Don't mess it up.

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Re: Three Light

Post by JBmidtown » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:22 pm

chaglang wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:
chaglang wrote:You're saying that you pay too much in rent and have too nice a place to have affordable housing in your building. That's entitlement.

And I think you're also implying that the designated affordable units shouldn't be as nice as the market rate apartments. That's just messed up.
No. I’m saying I pay market rate and don’t think it’s fair that someone can live across the hall and pay $800-1000 less than me!

I’m not implying anything. I don’t know how it works with affordable housing mixed in with a luxury apartment building? I would think entitlement is someone thinking they just automatically deserve things they can’t afford. I’d like a $450,000 house, but I can only afford a $250,000 one. Who’s going to help me get that 450k house for 250k?
Yeah, like I said, we tried doing 100% market rate buildings and 100% affordable/low-income and the broad consensus is that it was a mess. But while we're talking about entitlement and where people deserve to live, don't forget that you're living in a building that was subsidized by KCMO taxpayers. The payments are a little more hidden than they are in some other government programs, but the dollars are there nonetheless.
Pretty much the summary of what I’ve been saying.

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Re: Three Light

Post by horizons82 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:31 pm

chaglang wrote:And I think you're also implying that the designated affordable units shouldn't be as nice as the market rate apartments. That's just messed up.
Why is lower cost finishes messed up? That's how plenty of affordable units are done.

I'd agree that it'd be wrong if there was systemic avoidance of maintenence requests, or if it lacked functions like a washer or oven, but finishes are part of how you keep the costs down. From the public space out it should look the same, but inside it's laminate instead of granite; carpet instead of tile; etc. Why is that shameful? The whole point is ensuring people equal access to communities, both at the politcal and building level.

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Re: Three Light

Post by KCPowercat » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:44 pm

GRID wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:yes we know, we're a small potato city with good cost of living that can in no way face affordable housing problems...


I know that's not what you meant but that's exactly how it reads.

Fact is affordable housing is full downtown and yes there is plenty of affordable housing in midtown but this council sees that inequity of not having enough affordable housing right downtown as a topic they want to address.
I figured you would take it wrong. I just want to see KC develop a solid market and a good inventory of luxury apartments before shutting it down. KC is still in the beginning stages. From what I have seen, KC has not even reached true "luxury" apartment and condo construction yet and it may never reach that if it stops the momentum.

Downtown KC needs ultra luxury towers where CEO's would want to live just as much as it needs affordable housing. Most apartments in KC seem pretty middle of the road for a large urban center.

I'm on the same page as you. I want to see KC boom. Cordish really seems to be about the only company trying to make major things happen though. Don't mess it up.
I didn't take it that way because I know better but letting you know how it read to those who might not know you as well.

I agree with you that KCMO needs to be careful here....but I do think we need more affordable housing closer to downtown.

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Re: Three Light

Post by GRID » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:52 pm

KCPowercat wrote:
GRID wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:yes we know, we're a small potato city with good cost of living that can in no way face affordable housing problems...


I know that's not what you meant but that's exactly how it reads.

Fact is affordable housing is full downtown and yes there is plenty of affordable housing in midtown but this council sees that inequity of not having enough affordable housing right downtown as a topic they want to address.
I figured you would take it wrong. I just want to see KC develop a solid market and a good inventory of luxury apartments before shutting it down. KC is still in the beginning stages. From what I have seen, KC has not even reached true "luxury" apartment and condo construction yet and it may never reach that if it stops the momentum.

Downtown KC needs ultra luxury towers where CEO's would want to live just as much as it needs affordable housing. Most apartments in KC seem pretty middle of the road for a large urban center.

I'm on the same page as you. I want to see KC boom. Cordish really seems to be about the only company trying to make major things happen though. Don't mess it up.
I didn't take it that way because I know better but letting you know how it read to those who might not know you as well.

I agree with you that KCMO needs to be careful here....but I do think we need more affordable housing closer to downtown.
I would agree as well. I'm a big supporter of mixing affordable housing with market rate. I'm just saying the city has to be careful because KC does not have a mature downtown housing market yet. It's only 5-7 years from having that, but it's not there yet. Cordish is getting incentives, but they are still building a downtown that people want to live in. For example, they might help build the park over 670. Sure, it will be beneficial for Cordish, but it will be even more beneficial for the city.

Hopefully it wall works out and everybody gets at least part of what they want.

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Re: Three Light

Post by KC_JAYHAWK » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:53 pm

I don't agree with the 2 council members and as ST stated, these are high end luxury apartments. If the council wants "rent control" or affordable housing, build lower end apartments in the east village. Sorry, but if you can't afford to live downtown, move or get a better job, that's life.

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Re: Three Light

Post by normalthings » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:59 pm

KC_JAYHAWK wrote:I don't agree with the 2 council members and as ST stated, these are high end luxury apartments. If the council wants "rent control" or affordable housing, build lower end apartments in the east village. Sorry, but if you can't afford to live downtown, move or get a better job, that's life.
I always thought the east village was supposed to have a lot of such units.

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Re: Three Light

Post by KCPowercat » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:01 pm

We just need to be careful as a city to not put all the affordable housing in one "section" of downtown and pat ourselves on the back..it needs to be mixed within all other housing....but I'm fine not saying high end new build has to include affordable housing every time.

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Re: Three Light

Post by KC_JAYHAWK » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:07 pm

KCPowercat wrote:We just need to be careful as a city to not put all the affordable housing in one "section" of downtown and pat ourselves on the back..it needs to be mixed within all other housing....but I'm fine not saying high end new build has to include affordable housing every time.
Agree there. We don't want a Pruitt-Igoe 20 years down the road. The East Village can easily be made mixed use, with more affordable housing, plus mid and higher price points mixed in with retail.

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Re: Three Light

Post by beautyfromashes » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:01 am

I've said before that Cordish should be paying more for their garage instead of the city floating the whole cost. That gives money back to the citizens. But, to exchange full payment by the city in exchange for a few people to get their rent paid for is ridiculous! Why are we doing deals for a few people? That's the taxpayers money. Either get some of the money back from the garage arrangement or do something that benefits more than a handful of people. To expect someone to put you up in the most luxury condo in DT is the ultimate entitlement. And, I've seen so many people game the affordable income requirements it's not even funny.

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Re: Three Light

Post by im2kull » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:07 am

This argument is stupid.

Affordable housing is needed, yes. But, you don't force a private business to help someone who can afford a Ford Fiesta jump into a Ferrari. You help them get into a Focus.

The "Light" towers are the Ferrari's of Kansas City. PLENTY of other residential units exist that are not THAT high end, do they not? It would be an absolute waste of taxpayer money to SUBSIDIZE THAT MUCH RENT anyway. I am firmly against this. I'm OK helping pay a couple of hundred bucks (Like 300 max) towards someone's $475 rent, but I resent being asked, as a taxpayer, to foot THOUSANDS worth of rent every month to help someone pay $150/Month for a $2,165/Month apartment. That's ludicrous.

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